Sax on the Web Forum banner

1 - 20 of 47 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
243 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I just picked up my mark VII tenor from the shop after a full repad with roo pads. while the horn plays great, I noticed that the pads sit deep inside that you can feel the edge of the key cups especially in the right hand keys.
is this ok?
thank you for input
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru
Joined
·
38,840 Posts
as long as they close...

Maybe the shop chose the wrong size? They couyld have shimmed them with paper shims.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
918 Posts
Maybe that's the way with roo pads, but I doubt it. It's worth taking it back to discuss it and get a 2-year warranty against leaks, or something like that. Or if that fails take it into another shop for an opinion.

I had an alto re-padded around 20 years ago and it developed leaks throughout after less than a year playing it. And I play with a very light touch. Same problem; the pads were thin and after being compressed a bit they just couldn't seal due to the mechanics of the horn.

Only fix was a re-do, after bringing the sax in four or five times. I don't remember if they shimmed the same pads, but I believe they replaced all or most of them. The shop never admitted an error, and tried to blame the horn, but did finally stand by the work. Cost me only $150 and aggravation.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2014
Joined
·
5,160 Posts
Sounds like the wrong thickness pads. Roos aside from color should look like tradition pads when installed. Good luck convincing the repair shop to switch the pads. By the way, I have had black Roo pads on my tenor for 14 years. Not one has needed to be replaced.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member
TENOR, soprano, alto, baritone
Joined
·
7,420 Posts
My MK VI tenor is in for an overhaul and he talked me into Roo pads but the regular brown color, not white. When I argued that they would be too thin for a Selmer which came with .180" pads, he said that the Roo pads also came in various thicknesses and he would use the thicker ones. I specifically do not like thin, hard pads and reaffirmed this with him before leaving. Hopefully he took me seriously because if they're not to my liking it will get ugly fast.
I feel for you having had this happen to your MK 7 tenor and I hope you can get it fixed to your satisfaction. The real underlying problem here is something most players have never thought of, and that's how the geometry of a particular sax model was designed. A key element (no pun) is the thickness of the pad protruding from the pad cup. This is important because the key will be designed so with the proper pad installed, the pad/cup will be parallel to the tone hole when closed. If the pad is too thin, the cup will travel a little farther to close, which will leave a wedge at the rear of the pad not touching the tone hole. To compensate for this, the pad has to be 'floated' in at an angle. The sax can play this way but it is not the optimum situation, which should be the same as the factory set-up. In cases of extreme ignorance, the tech may actually try to bend the keys to force this work - make sure that this does not happen to your horn. If at some point someone wants to put the correct pads back in it, they will have to bend the keys back to original.
Ideally, the sax will have the correct pads in it so minor key opening height adjustments can be made with cork instead of bending keys and twisting rods.
Why would anyone think they have to use different pads or any other parts or methods to 'improve' a Selmer Paris sax that is otherwise in original condition? My personal goal is to have the sax as close to original as possible.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2016
Joined
·
17,979 Posts
I just picked up my mark VII tenor from the shop after a full repad with roo pads. while the horn plays great, I noticed that the pads sit deep inside that you can feel the edge of the key cups especially in the right hand keys.
is this ok?
thank you for input
The horn is outfitted with all new pads and it plays great. The pads installed are roo pads.

I really do not see the problem, quite honestly. You wanted those pads, the tech installed those pads and you are happy with how the horn plays.


It's worth taking it back to discuss it and get a 2-year warranty against leaks, or something like that. Or if that fails take it into another shop for an opinion.
I know around 8 or 9 top-notch techs across the country. I know their shop policies, I know their m.o.'s....For every one of those guys/gals I know, I know another who isn't a great tech.

Tell me...what techs do you know who would give a '2-year warranty against leaks' ?

"If that fails take it" ...elsewhere ?

If what fails ?

If the tech, who has seemingly done a successful repad job, declines the customer demand of a '2-year warranty'....take it elsewhere ? Because the tech is obviously ...something or other....?????

I find this puzzling.

Quite seriously. Because none of the techs I know would ever give a guarantee like that. Way too many variables involved.

They might offer a 2-year servicing plan, whereby if customer pays a predetermined (discounted) extra amt. up front at completion of repad, the subsequent servicings are free. But I seriously know of no tech that offers a 2-year guarantee.

(Please don't then say 'well perhaps the guys you know aren't that good then' or ' I guess they don't really stand by their work' , etc...because...while that might sound good on Forum, 'tis not the way things really work....and a horn developing some leaks after 9-15 months of playing is in no way an indication that a tech had done a substandard job....)

I find this entire thread puzzling. There appears to be nothing wrong, beyond the fact that the new pads are apparently thinner than the previous ones and therefore it 'looks different'.
But as they are apparently doing their job, properly - thus we can assume ave been properly installed....short of any significant fail happening over the next several months (which at this time would be pointless to speculate)...what is the problem ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
918 Posts
If you've ever shucked out 5 or 6 hundred bucks and had a sax unplayable after a few months you wouldn't think it was just cosmetic. The OP is smart to question it.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2016
Joined
·
17,979 Posts
This seems much akin to loving a mouthpiece but being worried it isnt right because the way something inside it looks.
Indeedy. Very much so. Thank you for saying that.

If you've ever shucked out 5 or 6 hundred bucks and had a sax unplayable after a few months you wouldn't think it was just cosmetic. The OP is smart to question it.
:| OK, I was trying to be measured in my previous reply...but now I just gotta laugh at this. "unplayable after a few months" ?

Holy cow, man....a bit of presumption going on there, no ?

The new pads installed are thinner than the previous pads...and the tech has obviously regulated the horn well to work with his repad job.

How in the h#ll.... is the sequitir of this: "you gonna end up with an unplayable horn in a few months !"

I mean, of ALL the potential possibilities....the one you seem to be runnin' with is quite the outlier....

This is where, and we see it on forums now and again, speculative replies can put a poor OP into panic mode .....when the fact is there is nothing here to suggest the tech has done anything other than furnish the customer with a good-playing, repadded sax.....

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
243 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
I appreciate all the feedback, I am happy with the job and the horns plays great. I did however pay $900 for the repad and wanted some different opinions here so I can bring it up to the shop when I stop by for minor adjustments next week.
I took a closer look this morning, the pads seems to sit just about 1mm lower than edge of the cup. they definitely dont stick out at all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
918 Posts
Indeedy. Very much so.



:| OK, I was trying to be measured in my previous reply...but now I just gotta laugh at this. "unplayable after a few months" ?

Holy cow, man....a bit of presumption going on there, no ?

The new pads installed are thinner than the previous pads...and the tech has obviously regulated the horn well to work with his repad job.

How in the h#ll.... is the sequitir of this: "you gonna end up with an unplayable horn in a few months !"
Only presumption here is by a couple of people who think that any thickness of pads is OK, and he shouldn't question the work. My own experience seems to make that presumption unreliable.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2016
Joined
·
17,979 Posts
I appreciate all the feedback, I am happy with the job and the horns plays great. I did however pay $900 for the repad and wanted some different opinions here so I can bring it up to the shop when I stop by for minor adjustments next week.
I took a closer look this morning, the pads seems to sit just about 1mm lower than edge of the cup. they definitely dont stick out at all.
Once again, I don't see a problem other than the previous pads were thicker.

By all means when you return to the shop for the tweak job, inquire. But don't take a position that somehow you have been screwed or that just because this tech does it this way it is worrisome. You can just ask: " Horn playing great. I just noticed that visually, the pads don't protrude beyond the cup edge like the old ones did. Never have seen that before on a sax of mine. Is that how you usually set 'em up when you do roos ?"

I am sure it'd be a nice, polite and informative conversation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,017 Posts
I have repadded, overhauled, and restored a number of Mark VI and Mark VII saxophones and regularly use Music Medic Roo and Pisoni Pro J pads that are .160" - .165" and they work well on those instruments. My padding technique involves entirely covering the back of the pad with a layer of shellac approximately 1.5 mm thick depending upon the feedback from "dry fitting". I can visualize if someone used the smallest amount of glue possible (like some factories still do) that the pad would sit lower in the cup and quite possibly necessitate bending the back of the key cup down a bit. I may be wrong, but the only makers I know of that used the thicker .180" were in the U.S. which would include the Selmer Bundys but not the Selmer "Paris" models.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2016
Joined
·
17,979 Posts
Only presumption here is by a couple of people who think that any thickness of pads is OK, and he shouldn't question the work. My own experience seems to make that presumption unreliable.
??????? Your earlier comments are unnecessarily dramatic and jump to conclusions or suppositions that are not based on reality - they clearly presume/suggest that the job may be substandard and if the tech does not give a very unusual warranty he should be be relieved of any future work.

It's not my interpretation. You wrote it there yourself.

This causes nothing other than unnecessary worry on the part of the OP.

It also provides disinformation to any reader who may come along and peruse this discussion.

The reality is thin pads sitting further into a keycup are in NO way a 'red flag' indicating anything at all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
918 Posts
I have repadded, overhauled, and restored a number of Mark VI and Mark VII saxophones and regularly use Music Medic Roo and Pisoni Pro J pads that are .160" - .165" and they work well on those instruments. My padding technique involves entirely covering the back of the pad with a layer of shellac approximately 1.5 mm thick depending upon the feedback from "dry fitting". I can visualize if someone used the smallest amount of glue possible (like some factories still do) that the pad would sit lower in the cup and quite possibly necessitate bending the back of the key cup down a bit. I may be wrong, but the only makers I know of that used the thicker .180" were in the U.S. which would include the Selmer Bundys but not the Selmer "Paris" models.

And my alto example was a Selmer USA model 162.

Not sure why some members are leaping up and down about a customer cautiously asking a question.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
918 Posts
??????? Your earlier comments are unnecessarily dramatic and jump to conclusions or suppositions that are not based on reality - they clearly presume/suggest that the job may be substandard and if the tech does not give a very unusual warranty he should be be relieved of any future work.

It's not my interpretation. You wrote it there yourself.

This causes nothing other than unnecessary worry on the part of the OP.

It also provides disinformation to any reader who may come along and peruse this discussion.

The reality is thin pads sitting further into a keycup are in NO way a 'red flag' indicating anything at all.
I think you need to re-read my replies, because I said nothing like you are interpreting and re-phrasing. And maybe those of othere who understand there is nothing wrong with questioning work done.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2016
Joined
·
17,979 Posts
I have repadded, overhauled, and restored a number of Mark VI and Mark VII saxophones and regularly use Music Medic Roo and Pisoni Pro J pads that are .160" - .165" and they work well on those instruments. My padding technique involves entirely covering the back of the pad with a layer of shellac approximately 1.5 mm thick depending upon the feedback from "dry fitting". I can visualize if someone used the smallest amount of glue possible (like some factories still do) that the pad would sit lower in the cup and quite possibly necessitate bending the back of the key cup down a bit. I may be wrong, but the only makers I know of that used the thicker .180" were in the U.S. which would include the Selmer Bundys but not the Selmer "Paris" models.
Indeed. So the lesson to take from this = different strokes for different (tech) folks.

I know techs who rely a lot on floating.
I know techs who significantly utilize shimming . I know techs who do not utilize shimming.
I know techs who utilize pad seating. I know techs who do not seat the pads after their other manipulations.
I know techs who use more key bending than I do. I know techs who don't do much bending.
I know techs who actually go very, very slightly undersized on the pad in the cup. I know techs who'd think that isn't a great idea.

All of these techs are very good techs and their resulting work feels great and functions great and holds up...and they have a very loyal clientele. Yes a bunch of techs can get together and debate why method A is superior to B or why method C doesn't work well for them...but the fact is there are different methods used to successfully achieve the same result.

This is sorta why (if anyone noticed :|) threads like this get to me, sometimes (not the thread query, but some of the what I consider misleading replies). Yeah, in some cases someone may report a problem upon getting something back from a tech and it'd be pretty unanimous "tech should have addressed that" or "that's substandard".

But this situation, as explained by OP, isn't one of those instances.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2015-
Joined
·
32,935 Posts
Maybe that's the way with roo pads, but I doubt it. It's worth taking it back to discuss it and get a 2-year warranty against leaks, or something like that. Or if that fails take it into another shop for an opinion.

I had an alto re-padded around 20 years ago and it developed leaks throughout after less than a year playing it. And I play with a very light touch. Same problem; the pads were thin and after being compressed a bit they just couldn't seal due to the mechanics of the horn.
I don't question your observation that the pads failed to seal after some time. Given that you play with a light touch, another possibility is that the pads were compressed to create a seat, and that crease relaxed over time until the pads no longer seated. That would not be due to thin pads, but rather due to the way that the pads were installed and seated. Level tone holes with properly seated pads should be stable with respect to time.
 
1 - 20 of 47 Posts
Top