[motteatoj]

I recently bought a Conn 6M with rolled tone holes, which had supposedly just had a fresh overhaul.
Well, it did in fact have an overhaul, albeit a very very poor one.
So, my tech worked on it (a very reputable one), and then redid a few things that still leaked, and again, and one final time to get it right.
Now I know it is very difficult to repair over someone else’s pad work, especially when it is bad work, but I am more interested a a thread here for all to reference that has two things commented on....

1. Repair tech’s THOUGHTA on type of pads, technique, tricks needed for RTH pad work.
2. Players/Owners EXPERIENCES with repadding RTH and longevity of that work done.

Essentially, a guide of sorts for folks to ask a new to them tech on how they approach RTHs so they do not get a bad pad job.

 

[pontius]

I think leveling them is the issue. Some people are OK with a little bit of filing while others believe in flattening them by manipulating the shape similar to dent removal. Some people leave them alone and shim the pads where needed.

I repadded my 1932 Conn and did not level any toneholes. I chose to shim pads where necessary. I had to go back over the horn two or three times over the course of a several months as the new pads settled in. I think there were a few air bubbles in the shellac bed on a couple pads that caused trouble along with some settling of adjustment materials. Now things have seemed to settle down and it has remained air-tight for several months now.

I saw a video recently where a guy demonstrates how he manipulates the tone holes by pulling and tapping until they are flat. If I had to do it over again I think I would try that technique.

 

[motteatoj]

I think you hit on something, and something my tech said and we have been experiencing, in that it takes a few iterations to get them to seal sometimes for good.

Which raised two questions...

1. Should pads be clamped or not on RTH saxes? And for periods after work is done?

2. If they are such a pain in the ***, why do people seem to cherish them so much? Is it just to say “this has rolled tone holes? Seems quite the bother.

 

[turf3]

I've been playing Conns since 1978 - most with RTH - and have never noticed anything particularly unusual nor have repairmen commented on anything about the tone holes.

Don't forget, almost all flutes have rolled tone holes (though the pad materials and methods are quite different).

I think a few people have made a big hoo-hah over a small feature of construction that in the real world has only minor effects on the pads.

 

[JayeLID]

2. If they are such a pain in the ***, why do people seem to cherish them so much? Is it just to say "this has rolled tone holes?

Yup.

 

[JayeLID]

I think a few people have made a big hoo-hah over a small feature of construction that in the real world has only minor effects on the pads.

Forever the market tries to push certain features on certain instruments, thus creating a 'value' argument where, arguably, for every parameter of an instument's performace, it matters not...or matters negligibly.
Don't get me wrong, I think RTH are kinda cool...in the 'look how they did it back in the day !" sorta way.

"Getting the Repad Right" on an RTH horn is no different than getting it right on a standard-hole one.

Level the holes.

Level the keycups.

Properly install the pads.

Properly float the pads.

Take proper steps to adjust and achieve a complete seal.

Properly seat the pads (if so desired).

Properly re-check it a few times after initial install for any necessary tweaking needed.

In case of you, motteatoj - the problem wasn't with the RTH's but with the fact that the initial repad sounds like it was just poorly done. If the person who did it had repadded a straight-hole horn, it probably would have been just as bad a job....

 

[pontius]

I am betting that Jay is right. The initial pad job was probably poor enough that it was a real job trying to fix all the problems and predict new ones that would pop up after getting some play time.

 

[motteatoj]

I am betting that Jay is right. The initial pad job was probably poor enough that it was a real job trying to fix all the problems and predict new ones that would pop up after getting some play time.

Yes, completely correct.
Not enough hot glue was used to float properly so trying to research was a bear.
This clown who did the last owner's overhaul was horrible.
Didn't even use the right size pads in some cases.
In the end, should have just had my tech re-overhaul (it's just about what had to happen.
But, now I have a near perfect 6M! A beaut.
And in the end I'm still ok with how much I have in it for the condition it is in.

So today's lesson....."recently overhauled" means nothing unless you know who did it and how good they are.

All that said, I did wonder if there were better / worse techniques for RTH repadding, sound like just good repadding is all that's needed.

 

[Grumps]

Had to replace a few pads on my Conn NWI soprano with rolled tone holes recently. I got the "soft feel" pads from MusicMedic and they've sealed rather well.

 

[saxcop]

I've had nothing but problems with hot glue. It took me a long time to figure that out. When I went to the Matt Stohrer method of shellac life became much easier.

 

[pontius]

I use shellac also. I just made up my own sticks recently from a bag of garnet shellac flakes. I used music medic soft feel pads on my Conn overhaul. They are not really that soft or pillowey so I am glad I did not use the harder standard pad.

 

[Pete Thomas]

IMO they should not need redoing over the course of months, a decent tech will get them sealing and they stay like that. Without recourse to clamps.

My preference would be to have the toneholes and key ups level, but if done well then shims may be more practical if levelling isn’t

Among the worst things I’ve seen though are filed down RTHs so they actually split off a bit

 

[Gordon (NZ)]

....

Essentially, a guide of sorts for folks to ask a new to them tech on how they approach RTHs so they do not get a bad pad job.

You cannot find out how good a tech is by asking him/her a few questions.

Ask many and local experienced teachers and players until a pattern emerges.

A good tech will do work on RTHs just as well as he does work on non RTHs.

RTHs are somewhat less forgiving of substandard adjustment, all other things being equal.
The pads are probably more inclined to stick.
The pads will likely last longer. (But what is the point of that if they are not set up to seal well?
IMO a well adjusted instrument with pads well installed, and "play-free" pivots, and sensible linkage materials, does not need follow-up adjusting after days/weeks/months in order to play well and stably.

 

[saxoclese]

I think you hit on something, and something my tech said and we have been experiencing, in that it takes a few iterations to get them to seal sometimes for good.

Which raised two questions...

1. Should pads be clamped or not on RTH saxes? And for periods after work is done?

2. If they are such a pain in the ***, why do people seem to cherish them so much? Is it just to say "this has rolled tone holes? Seems quite the bother.

I don't use pad clamps after the pads are installed regardless of the type of toneholes. This topic has been debated previously on SOTW along with "how deep should pad seats be"? Top quality work IMO requires level toneholes, tight key fitting, aligned key cups, and careful floating on a bed of shellac putting no pressure on the felt with the goal of the light eclipsing 360° with just the lightest closing pressure. The "impressions" in the pad are formed naturally over time by the force of the spring on spring closed keys, and by the finger pressure of the player on open keys. Properly leveled pads do not need an "impression" in the surface in order to be air tight.

My theory of why rolled toneholes were created in the first place has to do with the Conn Reso-ring pads that were initially used. The leather on these pads was quite thin, possibly due to the fact that it had to be stretched over the metal ring around the circumference of the pad. By putting a rolled surface rather than a thin edge at the top of the tone hole made it less likely that the tonehole would cut into the thin leather covering. When I do a restoration on a vintage Conn I always level the toneholes as much as possible by "mechanical" means and then take them to "perfection" with the judicious use of diamond rotary files. The areas that have been flattened slightly by the file are then rounded using craft sanding sticks and magnification, and then polished, and brush plated to match the other toneholes on a silver plated instrument.

 

[megwenda]

I think leveling them is the issue. Some people are OK with a little bit of filing while others believe in flattening them by manipulating the shape similar to dent removal. Some people leave them alone and shim the pads where needed.

I repadded my 1932 Conn and did not level any toneholes. I chose to shim pads where necessary. I had to go back over the horn two or three times over the course of a several months as the new pads settled in. I think there were a few air bubbles in the shellac bed on a couple pads that caused trouble along with some settling of adjustment materials. Now things have seemed to settle down and it has remained air-tight for several months now.

I saw a video recently where a guy demonstrates how he manipulates the tone holes by pulling and tapping until they are flat. If I had to do it over again I think I would try that technique.

So long as no-one levels the like the "tech" who last worked on the Weltklang I have just bought.

Rather than push out the dent caused when the low Eb guard was pushed in (lowering the side of the tonehole), he (or she) simply UNROLLED part of the tonehole to raise it up to meet the pad.

Its taken me hours to gently roll it down again, before removing the dent and raising the tonehole properly. My worry of course is whether this has overworked the top of the tonehole material too much, so far I can't see any sign that it has.

Question: rolling it down has left tool marks on the top of the tonehole.
Before I smooth these off with a rotary file, would it be a good idea to 'tin' them with silver solder to fill in the surface, hopefuly reducing the amount of material I have to remove?

 

[saxoclese]

Before I smooth these off with a rotary file, would it be a good idea to 'tin' them with silver solder to fill in the surface, hopefuly reducing the amount of material I have to remove?

The amount of heat required would make adding "silver solder" impractical. "Burnishing" using a smooth burnishing tool is sometimes used to reshape or move a softer metal to a new location. That would be my first choice if raising that portion of the tonehole doesn't work.

 

[megwenda]

Thanks for quick reply
I have already already raised and leveled the tonehole, and burnished it as much as I dared without overworking and hardening the material, it passes a leak light test 😉 so it is really only the scratches that I want to get rid of in case they cut the pad, or allow minute leaks that aren't shown by the leaklight.

Maybe a lead free soft solder would work?

 

[High Fly]

I don't use pad clamps after the pads are installed regardless of the type of toneholes. This topic has been debated previously on SOTW along with "how deep should pad seats be"? Top quality work IMO requires level toneholes, tight key fitting, aligned key cups, and careful floating on a bed of shellac putting no pressure on the felt with the goal of the light eclipsing 360° with just the lightest closing pressure. The "impressions" in the pad are formed naturally over time by the force of the spring on spring closed keys, and by the finger pressure of the player on open keys. Properly leveled pads do not need an "impression" in the surface in order to be air tight.

My theory of why rolled toneholes were created in the first place has to do with the Conn Reso-ring pads that were initially used. The leather on these pads was quite thin, possibly due to the fact that it had to be stretched over the metal ring around the circumference of the pad. By putting a rolled surface rather than a thin edge at the top of the tone hole made it less likely that the tonehole would cut into the thin leather covering. When I do a restoration on a vintage Conn I always level the toneholes as much as possible by "mechanical" means and then take them to "perfection" with the judicious use of diamond rotary files. The areas that have been flattened slightly by the file are then rounded using craft sanding sticks and magnification, and then polished, and brush plated to match the other toneholes on a silver plated instrument.

Possibly two of the most cogent paragraphs on SOTW , addressing repeated discussions! (2 very different topics obviously)

I would think the first should be the highest of mantras of all technicians. (Sit cross-legged in a quiet space, breath fully and deeply and repeat: Top quality work requires level toneholes, tight key fitting, aligned key cups, and careful floating on a bed of shellac putting no pressure on the felt with the goal of the light eclipsing 360° with just the lightest closing pressure.

...until a customer says,...naah, "Idon't want to spend $300 on some repair work" ; )

 

[StuartSax]

Rolled tone holes precede the Conn reso-O-ring pads. Plus, Conn is not the only maker to have used them. SML and a bunch of German makers are included as is almost every flute maker.

Please refer back to the Selmer video showing how they padded the Mark 6 in Elkhart to see how they put their deep crease in the pads. Of course, no one liked the Mark 6 and no one wants one in original condition.

 

[saxoclese]

Please refer back to the Selmer video showing how they padded the Mark 6 in Elkhart to see how they put their deep crease in the pads. Of course, no one liked the Mark 6 and no one wants one in original condition.

Could you provide a link to that video? Thanks.

Edit: Never mind, I found it.