[Bart56]

Can someone tell me if I simply got a bad pack of reeds? I am trying to find which reed works best for me. I've tried Vandoren multi-pack 2.5s but having a hard time with low notes on my '65 Bundy Alto. Upon suggestion from folks on this forum, I ordered a 3-pack of Rico Orange pack 2s.

Now I've read enough to know I should not expect all reeds to work well, but 2 out of 3 were cut off-center. One side is thicker than the other and you can see it on the base and also on the bark-to-vamp cut which should look like a parabola of sorts. Check it out:
The 3-pack laid out side bu side

Typical uneven end:

Uneven vamp cut on the sides - notice one side is higher than the other:

I know no one is surprised but the third (and best) reed has the same issues only not quite as bad. I'll be trying that one first and hopefully it will tell me that a #2 is better for me at this time. The Vandoren's were much more consistent. If this doesn't work out, I'll try to find a #2 multi-pack. (The red Jazz was m favorite.)

 

[lydian]

They all look fine to me. When the cane isn't a perfect shape to begin with (impossible with a natural product), the cut will appear to be wrong when it really isn't. Measure the thickness of the part of the cut you think is wrong to see how far off it really is. Hold it up to the light and see if the actual thickness looks pretty even. But do they play? That's all that matters. If you want to pay double for prettier reeds, that's up to you. I don't know what kind of sound you're after, but Vandorens never give me the sound Ricos do. If they were 3s instead of 2s, I'd gladly take them off your hands.

The problem with basing decisions on what you read rather than experience is that a place like this will give you a million different opinions that run from one view to the total opposite from pros and professors to absolute beginners, mine being just one in a million.

I'm not saying poorly cut reeds don't exist. They certainly do. But your examples are pretty close to normal and probably play fine.

So my advice, to be taken with a huge grain of salt, but backed up by a lot of experience with Ricos (40+ years), is to wet the reed and play it. Don't worry about the looks.

 

[Bart56]

@mdavej - thanks for the input. It's well appreciated.
I've tried 2 of the three so far. I'm finding that they are stronger on one side than the other - tested by slightly twisting the mouthpiece as I play. One side is clear and crisp while the other is softer and fuzzy. The pictures didn't show clearly how the bark is higher up one side of the vamp parabola by nearly a quarter of an inch - you'd have to look closely to see it. They do play but not that well. I don't even think a reed geek tool would work much magic on these reeds. I'll update after trying the last of the three reeds.
I typically flatten the bottom of the reed so I get a good 'pop' test, but even after flattening, the first reed would not pop. I noticed it would leak air around the base of the reed. The second reed held a pop test for about 5 seconds so there's that. Still unbalanced though.

I looked thru the reed with a backlight and found it fairly uneven so I scraped one edge until it evened out but still unbalanced. I don't mind 'tuning' up a reed but the Vandoren's just needed a little touchup. Much better than these and not much more expensive.

Still looking for the right reed for me.

 

[bandmommy]

I've always had better luck with Orange box reeds than Vandoren.
They're all I use on my bari sax.
A bit of sanding on the top of 'thick' side and they should play as well as any other comparable cane reed.
FWIW, I find the 'pop test' to be a bunch of hooey.

 

[milandro]

the idea of symmetry being the key to visually assess a reed is a red herring ( or Reed herring in this case ).

there was a video that that showed that no reeds that they ever measured were symmetric.

Not only, there is no way to tell from the way it is cut outside how a reed has grown it fibers inside in terms of symmetric growth.

As for reeds being asymmetric , how do you think that that matters if your embouchure is not guaranteed to be symmetric ?

more on reed things

 

[Grumps]

These reeds weren't even good back in the day when they were good...

 

[1saxman]

Ricos are typically regarded as 'school' reeds for students. However, the Rico #3 became the 'standard' reed among pros many years ago. The reason was, you could expect to find one in any one-horse town you found yourself in, so it made sense to use a mouthpiece that worked with it. The #3, or 'Medium' reed remains today as the most-bought and used sax reed.
So, with the Ricos, the selection/grading process is not as careful as the Royal or Premier for example but every sax player has used them from time to time and most have a few in their reed drawer right now.
The Vandoren reeds are consistently the most beautifully-made cane reeds I have seen but I have never found one I could use. I stupidly bought a box of them a few months ago while in a store that was doing me a favor, so I wanted to buy something. I played one and it was the same as every other Vandoren I have ever tried. Stiff for the grade, resistant and stuffy - but so perfect!

 

[Bart56]

Hi milandro - Thanks for the videos. While interesting and well meaning, I'm not sure these guys should be doing 'pseudo science' at all. In the first video with the micrometer, the are making hundreths of mm measurements without placing the micrometer at the same point on each edge. They would need to be much more consistent about where they placed it. I think a simple back-lit test would have shown them where it was thicker more accurately.
In the second video, he mentions putting the reed in a small spice jar with some water and sum RUBBING ALCOHOL - which is POISONOUS! Some ethyl alcohol is better or I've heard of mouthwash that has alcohol in it also being used.
I realize they are essentially passing on anecdotal stories but I would not put much stock in what they are saying - not that everything they say is wrong, just be careful on what is said over youtube.

Also, I've had some of the best herring in Sweden and Denmark but never saw a red herring - LOL!

Cheers,
Bart

 

[Bart56]

FWIW, I find the 'pop test' to be a bunch of hooey.

Thank you bandmommy - I used nothing but Rico clarinet reeds all those years ago but there seems to be too many duds per box. I know it happens across all brands but there are several pro YouTubers that recommend the pop test. Now I tried playing the first reed without doing the pop test. This was the best looking one (still asymmetric) and I had such a hard time playing it. I thought of the pop test when I could air leaking out of the mouthpiece no matter what I sis with my mouth/embouchure. And sure enough, as I sucked n the mpc, it just drew air in and no position would old a good seal. So I moved on to reed 2. This one held the pop test at least 5 seconds and it played so much better.
So was it the pop test that proved better play-ability? I don't know, but I will be ding it just to check from now on.
Cheers
Bart

 

[Bart56]

@1saxman - I hear you 1saxman. My vandoran trial pack was 2.5s, and I always look at the reed as I place it but never noticed any unevenness. But the Rico's were just so obviously asymmetrical, it caught my attention. I've tried 3 of the 4 Vandoren's and so far I like the Red Jazz best, but since I'm having trouble with low notes wanting to start an octave higher unless I tongue them, I decided to go to a #2 and work on my embouchure for a while. I may later decide to try a legere synthetic just to take the reed out of the equation. I read that the legere's are very consistent from one to the other. I'll wait until I move back to the 2.5s though.

 

[Bart56]

These reeds weren't even good back in the day when they were good...

Back in the day, I know it was me so maybe the Ricos weren't that bad then?

 

[Grumps]

Actually... there might have been more of a tan hue to the box as I remember them. I moved onto Rico Royals though, back when Rico still owned the shop. Now it's Vandoren Java (green).

 

[lydian]

Thank you bandmommy - I used nothing but Rico clarinet reeds all those years ago but there seems to be too many duds per box. I know it happens across all brands but there are several pro YouTubers that recommend the pop test. Now I tried playing the first reed without doing the pop test. This was the best looking one (still asymmetric) and I had such a hard time playing it. I thought of the pop test when I could air leaking out of the mouthpiece no matter what I sis with my mouth/embouchure. And sure enough, as I sucked n the mpc, it just drew air in and no position would old a good seal. So I moved on to reed 2. This one held the pop test at least 5 seconds and it played so much better.
So was it the pop test that proved better play-ability? I don't know, but I will be ding it just to check from now on.
Cheers
Bart

There are too many variables for the pop test to give you any meaningful information. If it fails, how to you know the problem is the reed or the mouthpiece? How do you know the reed just didn't need another 30 seconds of soaking to straighten out? How do you know it's not the ligature being too low/high/loose/tight? What if you simply don't have the reed on straight? What if it passes the pop test but still plays fine or looks terrible, do you chuck it anyway? Is the pop test really any faster than simply playing the reed? Assuming all the other variables except the reed are perfect, all the pop test really tells you is that the reed is sealing on the table at that moment and is soft enough to completely close. You still have to test playability, so what have you gained? The rare occasions I use the pop test is when I've dropped my mouthpiece and want to check if there's any damage to it that I can't see.

Personally, when I'm down to one reed left in my reed guard, without looking at any of them, I drop about 8 reeds in a glass of water and let them soak for a couple of minutes. When they look straight, I play test each one (takes about 15 seconds each). I get a pencil and rank them in order of how well they play, then put the top 4 in my reed guard. A few months later, I do the same thing over again. By the time a work my way through a whole box, the duds have gotten several chances, and if they're still duds they go in the garbage. Back when I was a kid with no money, I'd work on the duds and salvage maybe half of them, but these days I don't bother.

How many good playing Ricos do I get in a box? Maybe a third to half. How many Vandoren? Usually close to zero. Not because they aren't great quality, but because they simply don't give me the sound or response I'm after, nor do they fit my budget.

I agree it's nuts to put poisonous rubbing alcohol on a brand new reed then put it in your mouth. Before I play, I'll wet my reeds with tap water. My thinking is more of the germ free tap water penetrates the reed and my germ filled saliva stays mostly on the surface. Tap water also has a little chlorine in it which also helps cut down on critters. If they start to get nasty before they're worn out, they'll get a vodka or peroxide treatment.

I do question how/why you're comparing #2 Rico with #2.5 Vandoren. In my experience, Vandoren runs pretty hard. So that's like comparing #2 and #3.5, which to me is like comparing tissue paper to plywood - apples and oranges. A stiff breeze would make a #2 close up on me unless I was playing a massively open mouthpiece. For me, all my reeds have a sweet spot on strength that's pretty narrow. If I were used to #2, I probably couldn't play #3.5 at all, and vice versa.

 

[Bart56]

@mdavej

I see your point on the pop test but I find it a fast and easy check AFTER I've played it as a way to ensure it is not somethig silly causing me to miss all my low notes. I have a 2-screw lig and putting a reed on or off takes me 30 seconds or more. The pop test just lets me know that it seals against all edges and the flat back too. I agree there are a lot of variables but many of them are visually checked. My mouthpiece is a new Yamaha 4C.

I wanted to start simply and I started with Rico 2.5s. I was having so much difficulty with 2 of the reeds and was sticking with the one good playing one. So I decided to try the Vandoren multi-pack to see what else is out there. Still, I had some trouble starting my low notes and someone recommended trying a 2. And YES - the Rico #2 is very easy to start.I plan to test the Van Doren #2 multipak next. SO I really wasn't comparing Vandoren #2.5 with Rico #2s. I already did that comparing 2.5s to 2.5s. Now I'm using the 2's to see if it improves the response of an air attack on low B and C.

I hope this clears up what I'm doing. I'm constantly checking for leaks just to make sure it's not the sax, but me missing the low notes.

Cheers.

 

[Bart56]

Actually... there might have been more of a tan hue to the box as I remember them. I moved onto Rico Royals though, back when Rico still owned the shop. Now it's Vandoren Java (green).

So, wait...
Are you saying that the Vandoren Jazz Green are the same reed as the Rico Royals now? I can buy 3 Royals for $10 on amazon. I don't find a 3-pack of Jazz reeds while I search for m preferred reed.

 

[skeller047]

Bart56 you are almost where you need to be with these reeds, don't despair!!!

First, while agree these are a little off center, this is typical of Rico "Orange Box" reeds. They are, as Milandro says, not that bad. Not that good, either, but should be OK.

Second, Rico Orange Box are cut very shallow, and so you generally need a 1/2 strength STRONGER reed than other reeds - so try a box of 3's.

Third, and MOST IMPORTANT - you are on to something with the side to side test you described. This is testing the balance of the reed, side to side. If one side is more resistant, fuzzy or dead sounding, sand that side until it matches the "good" side in tone and response. I generally think of a triangle from the base of the vamp - with the point of the triangle right where the heart transitions to the tip. Don't sand or scrape in that triangle. This leaves two areas, one on either side, where it's safe to sand, scrape, geek, reed rush, whatever. Do not neglect making sure the back of the reed is flat.

Regarding the pop test, I agree it doesn't really show much, but it's more a function of the mouthpiece table and facing curve than anything else. If good playing reeds pop on your mouthpiece, and you have a reed that doesn't pop, then that reed needs work. Some mouthpieces don't have a strong pop, some do.

Bottom line, nothing will tell you how a reed plays except playing the reed. Develop your play tests (the side-to-side test is the main one I use, along with some basic register and tone tests), and use that to determine what to do to a reed to make it play well. Do not worry about how a reed LOOKS, or how it measures with a caliper or what you see when you hold it up to the light. None of that will tell you anything useful, but a couple well-honed play tests will tell you everything you need to know.

 

[bandmommy]

Some of the best playing reeds in my 48 years of clarinet and sax experience have been ugly as sin and wouldn't pop.
Looks are meaningless, and pop tests are hooey.
As with everything reed/mouthpiece related, YMMV.

 

[Grumps]

So, wait...
Are you saying that the Vandoren Jazz Green are the same reed as the Rico Royals now?

Some time ago, Rico was bought by a company that made guitar strings. That's when the Royals stopped being royal for me. So I went and tried all sorts of reeds until I found something I could use that had more consistent quality. For me, that ended up being Java greens. It took me a while though, and there were many reeds in between.

I also have never done the pop test. Ever.

 

[Sofiane]

I do have preferences about reeds, my favourites are the Vandoren V16 (for tenor) that I play mostly, I always comebackto them, RJS would be my second choice and Rigotti the third one.

But at the end no matter which brands or which style of cut you'll always find some reeds that are just not good and or bad.
Sometime I have patience and I work on them.
Sometimes not, I throw them directly to the trash.

But I agree with you, nothing can beat a good reed when you find one!

For soprano and clarinet I don't have that problem anymore since I play synthetic reeds for those instrument.

 

[Bart56]

Hey everyone,
Thanks for all the interesting and diverse responses. It's amazing what a little support and encouragement can do even when some folks contradict others. It helps to see the bigger picture.

And for all that, thank you. My Rico's are just another experiment in the journey.

Cheers,
Bart