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Well, I think that that may be true of the baritones based on Selmer design but I am sure that things get a lot more complex when considering the replacement of the baritones of different design with an octave key on the neck.

The variation of factors (volume, length, position of the octave pip, opening of this) is too great a factor. But again, if one can cobble a neck made of copper tubing and make it work...
 

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Well, I think that that may be true of the baritones based on Selmer design but I am sure that things get a lot more complex when considering the replacement of the baritones of different design with an octave key on the neck.

The variation of factors (volume, length, position of the octave pip, opening of this) is too great a factor. But again, if one can cobble a neck made of copper tubing and make it work...
Absolutely it would be a far different thing with other Baritones with octave key on neck.
The Selmer neck on another Selmer horn is also not a far stretch.
I wouldn't ever consider buying a horn without its original neck unless it were a very modern and popular horn with available replacement necks.
Such as Selmer Series III or other current production horns where one can be bought of the shelf with a good expectation of a match.
 

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Well, if one buys it very cheap it may be an option provided that they are instruments that have had at least some popularity in the past.

Gloger has measured hundreds of neck and has probably the most complete data bank on this matter in the world.

We have seen people buying obscure baritones (for some reason I have the impression that more baritones are missing their necks than any other horn) like Santoni made baritones, and then finding it near impossible to find an exact match.

I know of someone whom found a Couesnon baritone on the highway without a neck. He had been looking for a replacement for years (and wasn鈥檛 willing to buy an expensive neck from Gloger). When we spoke about this he had been looking for years and I have no reason to think that he ever found a replacement.

On a sideline. The last few years lots of so called Bundy Buescher replacement necks have appeared on ebay. I am not at all convinced that there was a pile of these 鈥 original鈥 necks waiting somewhere. Some are sold from the US but notably others are sold from China.
 

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Yes and I鈥檝e notice more than a few 12m replacement necks also.
Where and by whom they are made, I don鈥檛 know.
Though some who sell them claim they are or were made by Conn or perhaps more likely UMI Armstrong.
 

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if I were a Chinese maker and would have noticed the high prices for this (against the relative ease to make a neck) I would have been tempted to make 鈥 original鈥 parts.

If a neck sells for $200 which is often the cost of an entire Chinese made alto (where they come from) and you can sell a neck for the same price... what do you think that such an entrepreneur would think?
 

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if I were a Chinese maker and would have noticed the high prices for this (against the relative ease to make a neck) I would have been tempted to make " original" parts.

If a neck sells for $200 which is often the cost of an entire Chinese made alto (where they come from) and you can sell a neck for the same price... what do you think that such an entrepreneur would think?
This is what they did with the copy of a BA neck I bought of eBay. Just by "eye-balling" it looks the same as the original as far as where the octave pip is and it fits perfectly at a 27.5 mm tenon.
It's $80 so you could buy the $200 sax , keep the neck and make a lamp out of the rest of it and still save $500 on buying some of the other aftermarket necks.
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/223421364271
 

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How, then, can pianos work so long? Their string tension is certainly high.

What's different? The lack of environmental distress caused by human touch?
Pianos need to be brought back up to pitch periodically. Assuming the pegs haven't slipped wouldn't that mean that the strings "stretch" over time? A "tap" with a felt hammer is probably much less aggressive that the repeated back and forth drawing of a rosined bow in the same general location.
 

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Temperature and humidity are major factors for pianos staying in tune. If you have a perfectly climatized room, they will stay in tune "forever" whereas pianos exposed to just the change of the seasons will lose their tuning quite fast. The temperature aspect is easy to understand but the steel frame should not react to humidity.
 

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This is what they did with the copy of a BA neck I bought of eBay. Just by "eye-balling" it looks the same as the original as far as where the octave pip is and it fits perfectly at a 27.5 mm tenon.
It's $80 so you could buy the $200 sax , keep the neck and make a lamp out of the rest of it and still save $500 on buying some of the other aftermarket necks.
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/223421364271
The "Gretchen Question" is, how does it play?
 

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Matching serial numbers are more valuable, so says the market. I'm not implying is a problem with playability.
Yup. I would agree with you that this is the argument people make. It's a conventional assumption. I know you just stating rather than arguing for or against.
There are a lot of dumb market value assumptions people make .
As a seller I was just stating my position on this particular aspect.

Some arguments/conventions I, as a seller, will accept as just being the way it is. Others I won't buy into.

I wasn't denying your observation; you are likely right....was just stating it is not an argument I will ever buy.

Example:

If the horn is a relacq, I will adjust price accordingly. Even if it's an amazing relacq and it is one of the best-playing examples of that model I have ever come across.

If a horn has a serialed neck, and I have a neck of the exact same model horn, which is also serialed - but not matching the body...a Martin, King, whatever...I will absolutely not make a price adjustment for it, for the reasons stated, 's'all.....
 

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Pianos need to be brought back up to pitch periodically. Assuming the pegs haven't slipped wouldn't that mean that the strings "stretch" over time? A "tap" with a felt hammer is probably much less aggressive that the repeated back and forth drawing of a rosined bow in the same general location.
Pianos have a bridge which is attached to the soundboard, which is made of wood. So changes in the wood affect the tuning.

Without any real analysis, I suspect that the very high tensions of piano strings somehow mean that time-dependent changes have less effect on their tonal qualities.
 

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This is what they did with the copy of a BA neck I bought of eBay. Just by "eye-balling" it looks the same as the original as far as where the octave pip is and it fits perfectly at a 27.5 mm tenon.
It's $80 so you could buy the $200 sax , keep the neck and make a lamp out of the rest of it and still save $500 on buying some of the other aftermarket necks.
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/223421364271
But are you suggesting your $80 chinese eBay one plays as well as a $500+ properly reverse-engineered one made by Gloger or the like ?

I would actually want some proof of that. Your neck works, and you like it. So in that respect, you scored. I'd be happy if I were you, too. When I do my aftermarket neck matching, as oppsed to trying to dig up an original....that is exactly what I am looking for, too. Does it blow well ? Does it intone well ? Does it make the horn sound decent (no, not the same tonality as an original model neck, but still good-sounding) ?
Bingo, there you go - I am happy with that. Any you are correct, in many instances an eFlay special can meet all of those requirements, if one does more than just take a blind shot in the dark on one.

The mfr. or supplier name is info which could be very useful to others who have your model horn & who wouldn't be able to afford a $500 neck.

I would not however, extrapolate all of that to mean yours performs as well as one of the high-end craftsman-produced replacements. Not saying it absolutely doesn't...just saying I'd need someone to literally do a side-by-side of your $80 to a $500.....before I'd buy such an argument.
 

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Pianos need to be brought back up to pitch periodically. Assuming the pegs haven't slipped wouldn't that mean that the strings "stretch" over time? A "tap" with a felt hammer is probably much less aggressive that the repeated back and forth drawing of a rosined bow in the same general location.
Let's not lose track of the premise - one of "harmonicity" decaying with time, thus necessitating new strings for violins, yet not so much for pianos. It's not just about pitch - and that may just be slip at the tuning peg or accommodation in the organic parts - but whether the abundance of harmonic overtones are lost.

If it is a matter of bow vs hammer, then you substantiate my point that local wear is affecting the distribution of mass along the length of the string.
 

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But are you suggesting your $80 chinese eBay one plays as well as a $500+ properly reverse-engineered one made by Gloger or the like ?
I believe this is quite possible. Reverse engineering a neck is not difficult. There are some very very good engineering and manufacture in China. (AS well as the atrociously bad we all know about).

I would think a Chinese factory price for a neck could range from about $15 to over $100, so to retail online for 80$ it could well be very top end. As there is so much cheap crap coming out of China, we often forget that there can be some very good 9and relatively expensive) instruments. Di Zhao flutes being a good example as well as some very expensive rebranded saxophones whose companies what you to think they are made somewhere else.
 

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I believe this is quite possible. Reverse engineering a neck is not difficult. There are some very very good engineering and manufacture in China. (AS well as the atrociously bad we all know about).
Yeah, it is, I believe that, actually. As you have said before, the technology is there and really NOT all that impractical. And a neck is certainly less costly to reverse engineer and mass produce than an entire horn body.

As I noted, I wasn't doubting the possibility (although it WOULD surprise me if an eFlay jobber had actually had that sorta effort put into it). I didn't mean to imply it was impossible for a chinese factory to do it.

The notion that an asian mfr has produced a sub-$100ish neck which has really no practical performance or sonic differences from a $500 handcrafted one...that would be news folks would wanna know about.

IF, in fact, someone has.....they should straight-out, specifically say/market their product as that - they'd have a hella ca'ching in their near future...
 

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But are you suggesting your $80 chinese eBay one plays as well as a $500+ properly reverse-engineered one made by Gloger or the like ?

I would actually want some proof of that. Your neck works, and you like it. So in that respect, you scored. I'd be happy if I were you, too. When I do my aftermarket neck matching, as oppsed to trying to dig up an original....that is exactly what I am looking for, too. Does it blow well ? Does it intone well ? Does it make the horn sound decent (no, not the same tonality as an original model neck, but still good-sounding) ?
Bingo, there you go - I am happy with that. Any you are correct, in many instances an eFlay special can meet all of those requirements, if one does more than just take a blind shot in the dark on one.

The mfr. or supplier name is info which could be very useful to others who have your model horn & who wouldn't be able to afford a $500 neck.

I would not however, extrapolate all of that to mean yours performs as well as one of the high-end craftsman-produced replacements. Not saying it absolutely doesn't...just saying I'd need someone to literally do a side-by-side of your $80 to a $500.....before I'd buy such an argument.
I thought Gloger necks were in the $1400 range.
I'm sure the Chinese have the same or better access to whatever equipment and engineers to reverse engineer anything as someone in a small shop has.
There's some other guys who sell Chinese, or Taiwanese (whatever), necks like these at $700 so they must think they are capable.
I find the $80 neck very responsive. I use it on a 1938 BA so intonation even with the original neck was never exactly spot on. That's not why I play this sax.
There's some guys who've A/B'd them with more expensive necks. I'm saristified and sincerely doubt any other would be $620 better. Usually things that cost more are better but not if they're basically the same thing with a different badge stuck on it, You can't really argue the "soft metal" point since all these guys use the same Asian, they call it German, brass.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/223421364271
 

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I'm sure the Chinese have the same or better access to whatever equipment and engineers to reverse engineer anything as a someone in a small shop has.
Of course they do, the main issue (and the sometimes valid reason some people look down on Chinese products) is that in spite of often good quality machinery and good craftsmanship, it is not always the case. I have spoken to a few factories and they will supply to a customer price. Cheap is possible if you ask for cheap, great quality is possible if you pay for it - but often they are hoist on their own petard as the cheaper stuff can give an overall false impression of what quality is possible and so we have the bad general reputation.

There's some other guys who sell Chinese, or Taiwanese (whatever), necks like these at $700 so they must think they are capable.
Or they just like having a huge markup. I know the wholesale/factory prices.

The point about necks (which has been made) is there is relatively way less to wrong than with a whole saxophone. Provided the octave key mechanism lines up and the metal has some integrity anyone can (for example) buy a neck for 拢40 and sell it for 拢500 or more with the right hype.

Players will try it and often find it sounds bit different. It's a strange human phenomenon that very often different = better (temporarily) and hence you may hear them saying it "opened up their sound" (I love that totally meaningless phrase)
 

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Players will try it and often find it sounds bit different. It's a strange human phenomenon that very often different = better (temporarily) and hence you may hear them saying it "opened up their sound" (I love that totally meaningless phrase)
Yup. A replacement neck not of a highly reverse-engineered design for a specific model will likely make the horn sound different, as far as tonality. This can often be perceived as a positive, initially at least.

It can also, in fairness, be along the lines of what the buyer was looking for.

As in the vid I posted, the assumption there was someone isn't searching for a neck to make their horn sound exactly like what the original neck would have produced, but rather a neck which in some way 'gives something more' or 'different'.

On the vintage horns I have matched with chinese necks, for the most part the necks made the horn plow brighter, reedier. Note: the horn STILL retained tonal qualities of that model (i.e. the neck didn't make a King Cleveland or Evette, Italy 'sound like' a Yamaha or Jupiter). It still sounded like a Cleve, just with someone messing with the B-M-T tone controls a bit.

This change could, by many, be described/perceived as 'better' in a sense...i.e. the horn had more cojones, the horn 'cut through' more, etc. "opening up", "responsive", etc...

Nothing wrong with that. But there is a realistic element, of course, that when someone buys something new, they initially are pretty pleased with their purchase.

I use it on a 1938 BA so intonation even with the original neck was never exactly spot on. That's not why I play this sax.
There's some guys who've A/B'd them with more expensive necks. I'm saristified and sincerely doubt any other would be $620 better.
Fair enough and that is everyone's call to make. So you got an $80 neck which you feel performs well, sounds good, and does not produce any more intonational quirks for you than the original horn's neck.

That is the sort of bar which is possibly achievable with a budget neck*. You did well, then.

*but not just any neck which one stumbles across...some guidelines on finding a decent match still need to be followed.
 

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Gone are the days of limited choices and thrifty attitude, it is precisely to offer a degree of variation in his sales ( and generate a lot more of those, methinks) that Gloger took to offer next to exact copies alternative designs to the original.

I think and thought at the time that this also opened up a different market to him.

There are many players (good or bad) out there whom are forever looking for the " je ne sais quoi " ( quite literally " I don't know what " ) by forever changing reeds, mouthpieces and, why not, I hear neck makers think, necks.

If you build...they will come ( and they do!). Those who seek will find what those who sell have made for them.

 

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Yup. A replacement neck not of a highly reverse-engineered design for a specific model will likely make the horn sound different, as far as tonality. This can often be perceived as a positive, initially at least.

..... But there is a realistic element, of course, that when someone buys something new, they initially are pretty pleased with their purchase.
Could be that they (subconsciously or not) want to justify spending the money. I do this, even though I realise later I don't really like it.

It can also, in fairness, be along the lines of what the buyer was looking for.

As in the vid I posted, the assumption there was someone isn't searching for a neck to make their horn sound exactly like what the original neck would have produced, but rather a neck which in some way 'gives something more' or 'different'.
Sometimes there is something describably better. The Chinese neck (Bauhaus) I sometimes use on my Buescher TH&C alto does have a different sound, some may call it focussed - Just find it less "fluffy" (not that fluffy is necessarily bad - or good) and a tad more in tune on the octave A. Curt Altarac agreed this is very possible as the bore is very slightly smaller due to thicker brass.



This change could, by many, be described/perceived as 'better' in a sense...i.e. the horn had more cojones, the horn 'cut through' more, etc. "opening up", "responsive", etc...



More cojones may just be from blowing it harder out of sheer excitement of receiving the package in the posts. Cut through I get, basically more edgy or bright sound. "Opening up" yeh, enough said - I just don't get that one.
 
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