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Correct me if I'm wrong, but, how can a company make a neck and market it for several different makes/models of horns? From what I gather, they basically say "Adjust the tenon to fit your horn and off you go!"

I was under the impression that different sax makes/models have slightly different lengths/curves etc... things I would think could affect tuning and what not?

Is it as simple as "adjust the tenon and go"?
Yeah, it's pretty suspect, really. I mean, it isn't even like you could say 'this modern asian neck will work on this modern asian model'.

I recently discovered this with a Vito YTS-23. I bought one neckless...didn't have a Yama neck here to determine its natural pitch...but had 3 different "eBay Special" chinese necks lying around, all with slightly different specifications.

I figured ONE would work well...but alas, none actually did. They would intone decently in the middle register area but would either go out high or low....

Interestingly, however, later Vito Taiwan necks work great on YAS and YTS 21/23's....although the body specs of the models aren't the same.

Obviously there are necks available (ostensibly) for particular models...modern replacements for Selmer, France horns for example...and I am not talking custom-made; am talking somewhat mass-produced....

So basically, it's BS. For the most part a crap-shoot. The notion that a new neck will work on a variety of horns just isn't accurate....unless the company literally lists the horns it will work on, in which case that list wouldn't be particularly long...but may in fact have the horn on it you seek.

My buddy (no not really.... but I love this vid and it has NEVER steered me wrong):


...also 'adjust the tenon and go'....:|...maybeeeee....a tenon has to be within around .25mm max of the recipient body's receiver diameter. If it's off by more than that, no compressing nor expanding will get that neck to fit right.

So if your receiver is 28.2mm....you have to find a replacement neck with a tenon of 27.95-28.45...or you'd have to have a tech replace the tenon on the replacement neck....
 

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So did you try the "sho-flute" test on those 3 candidates, and compare them to the newer Vito neck????? Enquiring minds want to know...
Actually, I had discovered that Vito Taiwan necks worked decently a while back...they had almost the same natural pitch as the Yama 23 neck when I was able to compare side by side.

For this particular horn, in this instance, with no true Yama or even Vito Taiwan neck around with which to compare, rather than continuing to take shots in the dark, I bit the bullet and purchased a Yamaha replacement neck....

So I would speculate that none of these eFlay cheapie necks I had actually have the same natural pitch as a 21/23 neck.
 

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I use, and am a fan of aftermarket necks. I play a Ponzol neck on both Tenor and alto. What it does for me not the subject here, but in response to the OP and subject .... why would it be any different than a mouthpiece difference?
Because an aftermarket neck which is NOT a high-end one, of a design clearly engineered and having undergone some R&D....is really not likely gonna work out all that well on a particular horn if you do not match it to the original neck's natural pitch.

As Milandro and Saxoclese note: Gloger, Ponzol, and the like...those guys have seriously done research, major reverse-engineering, and a lotta testing.... and they know which necks to offer customers for which horns.

Most new necks readily available out there, however, do not fit that description.

A neck is going to have FAR LESS significance than a mouthpiece and even less than reed choice in my opinion.
I respectfully disagree. A poorly-matched neck to a horn body is far more dramatic than a poorly matched mouthpiece to a horn model, in most instances, IMHO.

So unless one does a bit of research beforehand on how to find a decent match (and not just take the marketers word for it)....one can quite easily end up with a neck which is a fail, far more frequently than you would a new mouthpiece which is a fail....
 

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It is the taper or "conicity" of the neck that determines how well the harmonics of the notes of the instrument line up, also called its "harmonicity". If the taper is too small, the octaves are too wide. If the taper is too great, the octaves are too narrow. The test of the necks in the video blowing like a bottle and buzzing into the end like a brass instrument compares only the length of the air column inside the necks. That may get you into the "ball park"....
Yes, absolutely. In both the vid and in my experiences and suggestion....the goal was NOT to find a neck which is a good match to the original across-the-board in all aspects of what a neck is supposed to do.

The goal was to just come up with a neck which would intonationally work well with the particular horn. As far as tonality, resistance, blowing response, etc....that vid test doesn't address those things nor is it meant to. Most of the time when I get a positive match of replacement neck to body, I am simply shooting for intonation up and down the registers which is in the pocket.

The methodology in that vid achieves this.

Rarely do the other aspects of the 'successful' neck match how the original would have performed.

I have matched up a good 40 or so neckless bodies with necks using this method over the years...as I said, it has never failed to produce a decent match. Absolute worst-case scenario I have come across maybe 3 or 4 times is: somewhere in there up and down the registers there may be one or two notes which were 20 cents or so off. And I don't mean the same note being off in different registers...I mean just a couple of notes from Bb1 thru altissimo being off to the degree where one had to consciously lip it back into range...

Even in those instances, it was like 20-25 cents off ...not like 30-40.
So, IMHO, that's still a pretty successful methodology.
 

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The pitch of the fundamental of a given note is one thing. The frequency of its harmonics is something else. A really thorough test of a neck (or saxophone for that matter) is to get a tuner that shows the pitch of the fundamental and the closest harmonics and check the "harmonicity" of the body and neck tube.
Interesting to know. Thx. I may try that next time.
 

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I crack up with the people that are dead set about having the original neck to their mark 6(f.e). Are we really to believe that every neck is specifically made for each horn??? Obviously they look for a good match, but a model is s model.... or is there really more to it??
I generally agree with this. Occasionally when I sell horns which had the serials stamped on the neck (Martins for example), but I matched up a still-by-the-same-maker-and-of same-era-and-same-model neck to the body.....just obviously not matching in serial #...I will get someone trying to talk me down in price because 'the neck isn't the original neck'.

That moves into absurdity. It's a Martin Indiana (or Comm II or whatever) on the same model body....it's the same fookin' neck specification. I ask them to direct me to anything factual which suggests that the same-mfr/same-model neck I have matched to the horn somehow will compromise the horn's integrity.

These things get nuts...and really, IMHO...all it is is people trying to lowball/devalue what I am selling so they can pat themselves on the back as 'wily consumers'.

I remember several years ago a thread by someone who purchased a vintage classic model horn from me...one which I had gone to some effort to find a matching, good condition, by-same-mfr. neck for. The horn model only had a run of around 8 years. Serial numbers were off by less than 1000. Two months after I sold it, he starts a thread lamenting the fact that his horn doesn't have its original neck.

Unless there is clear proof that the neck spec changed on a model at a certain time (Buescher for example)....this is purely just stupidity.
 

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Sure, but in the case of where they DO put serial numbers on necks/bodies, there would be a case to say a horn without the matching neck is not as valuable as it would be if it had the matching neck. Speaking strictly from a value standpoint, and not from a playing standpoint.
In theory this may be true. But again...in a situation where the neck included with the horn is actually a neck from that exact SAME model horn, just of a different serial.....that argument just holds no water whatsoever. UNLESS the person making it can illustrate that the neck specifications changed from the necks of the original serial era to those of the replacement era. Which, again, in the most common cases...didn't happen.

And fact is, yeah...Turf is basically correct. All the 'matching serial' neck means is, when it came time for the factory worker to match up neck with body, they just grabbed a neck from the pile and a body from the pile, and tweak-fitted the tenon to the receiver, then stamped the neck with the final fitted tenon to match the specific body serial.
End of story.
So, again....given that this was about the extent of the 'magic' employed at the factory....what case can really be made ???? IMHO, very little argument to be made that a horn with same model neck, but unmatching, serial has somehow 'lost' anything, either in value or performance.
So that argument simply becomes a mechanism for haggling....
 

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Matching serial numbers are more valuable, so says the market. I'm not implying is a problem with playability.
Yup. I would agree with you that this is the argument people make. It's a conventional assumption. I know you just stating rather than arguing for or against.
There are a lot of dumb market value assumptions people make .
As a seller I was just stating my position on this particular aspect.

Some arguments/conventions I, as a seller, will accept as just being the way it is. Others I won't buy into.

I wasn't denying your observation; you are likely right....was just stating it is not an argument I will ever buy.

Example:

If the horn is a relacq, I will adjust price accordingly. Even if it's an amazing relacq and it is one of the best-playing examples of that model I have ever come across.

If a horn has a serialed neck, and I have a neck of the exact same model horn, which is also serialed - but not matching the body...a Martin, King, whatever...I will absolutely not make a price adjustment for it, for the reasons stated, 's'all.....
 

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This is what they did with the copy of a BA neck I bought of eBay. Just by "eye-balling" it looks the same as the original as far as where the octave pip is and it fits perfectly at a 27.5 mm tenon.
It's $80 so you could buy the $200 sax , keep the neck and make a lamp out of the rest of it and still save $500 on buying some of the other aftermarket necks.
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/223421364271
But are you suggesting your $80 chinese eBay one plays as well as a $500+ properly reverse-engineered one made by Gloger or the like ?

I would actually want some proof of that. Your neck works, and you like it. So in that respect, you scored. I'd be happy if I were you, too. When I do my aftermarket neck matching, as oppsed to trying to dig up an original....that is exactly what I am looking for, too. Does it blow well ? Does it intone well ? Does it make the horn sound decent (no, not the same tonality as an original model neck, but still good-sounding) ?
Bingo, there you go - I am happy with that. Any you are correct, in many instances an eFlay special can meet all of those requirements, if one does more than just take a blind shot in the dark on one.

The mfr. or supplier name is info which could be very useful to others who have your model horn & who wouldn't be able to afford a $500 neck.

I would not however, extrapolate all of that to mean yours performs as well as one of the high-end craftsman-produced replacements. Not saying it absolutely doesn't...just saying I'd need someone to literally do a side-by-side of your $80 to a $500.....before I'd buy such an argument.
 

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I believe this is quite possible. Reverse engineering a neck is not difficult. There are some very very good engineering and manufacture in China. (AS well as the atrociously bad we all know about).
Yeah, it is, I believe that, actually. As you have said before, the technology is there and really NOT all that impractical. And a neck is certainly less costly to reverse engineer and mass produce than an entire horn body.

As I noted, I wasn't doubting the possibility (although it WOULD surprise me if an eFlay jobber had actually had that sorta effort put into it). I didn't mean to imply it was impossible for a chinese factory to do it.

The notion that an asian mfr has produced a sub-$100ish neck which has really no practical performance or sonic differences from a $500 handcrafted one...that would be news folks would wanna know about.

IF, in fact, someone has.....they should straight-out, specifically say/market their product as that - they'd have a hella ca'ching in their near future...
 

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Players will try it and often find it sounds bit different. It's a strange human phenomenon that very often different = better (temporarily) and hence you may hear them saying it "opened up their sound" (I love that totally meaningless phrase)
Yup. A replacement neck not of a highly reverse-engineered design for a specific model will likely make the horn sound different, as far as tonality. This can often be perceived as a positive, initially at least.

It can also, in fairness, be along the lines of what the buyer was looking for.

As in the vid I posted, the assumption there was someone isn't searching for a neck to make their horn sound exactly like what the original neck would have produced, but rather a neck which in some way 'gives something more' or 'different'.

On the vintage horns I have matched with chinese necks, for the most part the necks made the horn plow brighter, reedier. Note: the horn STILL retained tonal qualities of that model (i.e. the neck didn't make a King Cleveland or Evette, Italy 'sound like' a Yamaha or Jupiter). It still sounded like a Cleve, just with someone messing with the B-M-T tone controls a bit.

This change could, by many, be described/perceived as 'better' in a sense...i.e. the horn had more cojones, the horn 'cut through' more, etc. "opening up", "responsive", etc...

Nothing wrong with that. But there is a realistic element, of course, that when someone buys something new, they initially are pretty pleased with their purchase.

I use it on a 1938 BA so intonation even with the original neck was never exactly spot on. That's not why I play this sax.
There's some guys who've A/B'd them with more expensive necks. I'm saristified and sincerely doubt any other would be $620 better.
Fair enough and that is everyone's call to make. So you got an $80 neck which you feel performs well, sounds good, and does not produce any more intonational quirks for you than the original horn's neck.

That is the sort of bar which is possibly achievable with a budget neck*. You did well, then.

*but not just any neck which one stumbles across...some guidelines on finding a decent match still need to be followed.
 

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Throw Bosken into the mix, just for good measure...anyone know what his run ?

At this point we have high-end Tenor necks pricing out at $575 - $1400.....wonder if Bosken shatters that ceiling....(?)

...the next price shelf down being offerings such as Phil Barone's necks...in the $300 range...which seem to be a more 'one style fits most' endeavor (?). I know some folks who like their Barone necks....

Oleg also seems to offer a 'one style fits most' for around $800....

....Ponzol in the $500 range specifically targeted for Selmer and Yamaha....
 

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Are the Ponzol and Barone necks also made in PRC but with a US price tag?
Or is there more to them?
It would seem that the cheap Chinese made necks available on eBay etc are also aimed at the Selmer and Yamaha type horns.
I guess they are the same neck that comes with their horns which are based n these models.
A fair question. I believe Phil's necks are asian-produced, yes. Dunno about Ponzol.
 

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To be fair, Gloger and KB sax necks are hand made at their respective shops - these guys are actually fabricating their own necks, not rebadging the asian examples. Although given the mark-up's on these "stencil" necks, they'd be wise to adjust their business models... or not.
Yes, indeed, again if there was really some R&D and reverse engineering put into these, and they are made in-house, then there's a fair argument to charge the Cadillac price. IMHO $575-1400 for a hand-made neck is quite, um, 'fair' enough, though. Really. Not many folks are gonna argue that they should cost more given their in-house fabrication.
I understand your point, however. A seller who subcontracts to an asian mfr. and is basically offering the same product as them, just rebranded, shouldn't particularly get away with charging $500+ for a neck. It could be that some of these products are exactly that; thus as MIlandro noted....a wily purveyor identified the bandwagon and decided to jump on, without quite putting in the effort of Gloger, etc....
Quite possible.
 

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I love my Oleg necks for both Tenor and Alto...had to expand receiver slightly to make them fit so I can't randomly switch back and for forth, but both the clarity and intonation were better with these necks so I switched. Interestingly, I didn't like the sound of the silver neck on my tenor even though it is silver plated. Every neck I tried, responded and sounded slightly different and I ended up going to a softer reed set up. I have since tried the custom Yamaha necks and didn't like the them at all....got to experiment and find out what works for you and your axe.
What's your horn ? A Yama, I am assuming. What model ?
 

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I've long been interested in a Paraschos neck but this thread has given me pause.
I think Paraschos is a bit different...which is why I hadn't mentioned them before. I mean, one has a right to b#tch about a $600+ neck which is actually made in china and stencil branded. But Paraschos necks are a unique thing.

Now, are theirs also a 'one size fits all' ? Or do they target particular necks for particular models ? If the former, then yeah, maybe pause....because it's the same roll of dice you'd take with any neck which is marketed as such...
 

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Ahhhh...I DO see on his website that Paraschos actually at least specifies/specs the BRAND of horn his available necks are tailored to. So that isn't a 'one-size-fits-all' thing then. That's promising....
 

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I think when you order from his site they do ask which model horn you're buying it for... so maybe the necks are tailored for different makes of horns? I wonder though, are the NECKS themselves different for each horn or is it just a different tenon made to be an approximate fit for each horn?
Good question. Good reading between the lines, there....

Or maybe it's different tenon, different pip location, same neck tube ? Stuff like this....
 

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"Tailored" only meaning that the fit is adjusted. Nothing is tailored other than the tenon fit.
Which of course at the end of the day might not even be 'tailored' enough. I mean, best they can do before sending a neck out is refer to the owner's model, refer to their 'charts' of tenon diameters for different models, tweak their tenon to match their chart numbers (or grab a tenon of diameter matching the chart, and solder it on), and pack it up.

There's a fair chance that when the neck arrives the new owner may still have to take it to a tech to really dial in the fit for his/her actual horn.
 
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