[Dave Dolson]

I know this has been pretty well beaten to death, and I looked through several threads to see if there wasn't already an appropriate thread to post this. But I couldn't find anything recent - no, I did not do the SEARCH. Forgive me.

There has been much posted about Selmer's Reference 54 alto and the low-end gurgles (aka "motorboating") that some have experienced with it. Some "fixed" it with a cork in the bell, others switched necks.

I never had the problem - until a couple of days ago when I was testing mouthpieces/reeds. What got me started was a thread about Sigurd Rascher playing a Buescher with a vintage Buescher mouthpiece and #4 reeds. A youtube video clip was included and I was impressed with the tone he got with that set-up.

I have a couple of vintage alto pieces so I dug out some new #3 reeds (the hardest I had) and tried them with the vintage pieces (a Conn and a King, unmarked as far as models or tip-openings go). These pieces in the past had almost been impossible for me, but with the harder reeds they spoke right up - not to the point of being considered, but much better than before.

Then, when I tried the low notes - nothing but gurgles. I couldn't get the low notes to speak at all.

Back to my favorite mouthpieces (more open tips I think) with softer reeds and voila! the horn spoke easily from top to bottom.

So, take it for what it is worth. DAVE

 

[jlima]

Are you suggesting that the problem will be solved with softer reeds? I'm playing relatively soft reeds (Java green 2.5 on a Gaia 6 mpc) on mine and it still gurgles, unfortunately.

 

[Reedscraper]

Does the Buescher mp push far enough onto the cork? If it is positioned at less than half the cork length the mp does not match the neck/bore. Push on 3/4 of the way. Even though you are horribly sharp, the gurgles might disappear.

 

[awholley]

It's likely the Buescher pushed farther on the cork than his other pieces.

Interesting observation, Dave. I just had a similar experience play testing a Cannonball Vintage Reborn alto. It gurgled (not as bad as my 54) when I used a large chamber mouthpiece, but was better with a Vandoren AL3. The same setups on the Stone Series had no such problems. I play tested 2 Vintage Reborn altos and 3 Stone Series altos -not a huge sample, but more than just 1, and they all behaved consistently.

None of the mouthpieces I owned (including the one that came with the sax, an S80 and a S90 among others) fixed the gurgle on my Ref 54, but as you know from our previous discussion, a Series III neck did. After that I could play any mouthpiece and the low notes were "like butter".

FWIW, I was told Rascher played on Vandoren 3's (not 4's), though a lot of current Buescher/Rascher mouthpiece players play on the harder ones.

 

[Dave Dolson]

I THINK my experience was because of the combination of the mouthpieces and the hard reed. Like I said, the two pieces I was testing were an old Conn (that came with a New Wonder alto, since traded away) and a King (which came from an early 1920's King alto that I still own). I was intrigued by Rascher's sound on such difficult mouthpieces - I've owned other vintage mouthpieces and they were atrocious when I played them (both alto and soprano). I'd never tried them with a hard reed and hearing Rascher's youtube performance convinced me that I should give a hard reed a try. A post in that thread claimed Rascher used a #4 reed - I actually don't know what he used.

And I realize that a #3 reed may not seem too hard for some of you but I'm a soft-reed guy and never got along with hard reeds. The #3 reed did what I thought it would on those vintage mouthpieces - allowed them to speak for me.

When I put a #3 reed on the Conn and King mouthpieces, they sounded pretty good. They were in tune, too (compared to my tuned piano) so their position on the cork was not an issue (I'm familiar with that issue). But when it got to the bell tones . . . no go - no way.

What I am suggesting is that maybe some of the gurgle problems others have experienced could be eliminated by changing mouthpieces - going to a more open piece with softer reeds. It worked for me because when I went back to my Meyer 6S-M, Don Sinta, Brilhart, and even my S-80 C* with a soft Fibracell reed, no gurgles. These are among my better alto players.

Of course, I'm ALSO of the opinion that accurate fingering on the left pinky table may cure the gurgles on the Ref 54, too (based on the Selmer mechanism that allows the low C# to open slightly if the player does not hit the separate notes perfectly and instead touches the lower connecting bar on the left-pinky table). This was discussed off-line with awholley and I've mentioned it before.

 

[Nefertiti]

Mouthpiece choice is a factor. I have found that the mouthpieces I push the farther on the cork, the less the gurgle. The mouthpieces that sit way out on the cork are more gurgly down low. Of course this is all tied to how large or small the chamber and baffle are.

 

[Danstr]

Here was my experience:

Never had the gurgle when I first bought the horn. Then, as time went by, I noticed that low B started to gurgle, then eventually low C started as well. Upon close inspection of the low Eflat pad, I noticed all of these tiny pieces of fabric all over the pad. The loose fragments of fabric were getting on the pad from the fleece type sweatshirts that I was wearing.
I used a Q-tip to clean the low Eflat pad and also cleaned the low C and C# pads as well and the problem was solved.

I know that Dave's post was concerning mouthpiece selection, but I thought that I'd post my experience just in case it might help someone else out.

PS: You can also use a pipe cleaner to clean off the pads in harder to reach places. Just be careful to not puncture or scratch the pad.

Dan

 

[Dave Dolson]

Dan: Thanks. There are a myriad of conditions that can cause this issue. Certainly foreign material on pads can be one of them. Glad you found the culprit. DAVE

 

[TommyD69]

The loose fragments of fabric were getting on the pad from the fleece type sweatshirts that I was wearing.

This is exactly why you should also NOT use one of those "fuzzy" spit sucker-upper sticks that are on the market.