I have utilized both, in general I don’t like to work on reeds with the ATG sanding block if the reed is too wet. I do flatten the back of the reed with the reed geek or reed knife, whatever is handy. I like to do small adjustments in balancing the sides with the reed geek but if a reed is a harder one to begin with I do like using the atg to bring it down quickly , and balancing as per the ATG instructions works as well for me also. I also like to use microfiber polishing cloths for fine finishing of the reed as well as reed rush.
ReedGeek to ATG, transitioning from one reed system to another, tips?
Hello
I recently decided to grab the ATG System after years of being a devoted/obsessed ReedGeek user and I'm looking for some advice. I've read the book, watched the videos, and it seems like a fantastic method, however I'm sure not everyone who uses the system follows his instructions to a T. Here's what I've previously been doing for reed prep, curious to hear everyone's thoughts and how to implement the ATG system.
My process, breaking in:
-Soak reed in warm to slightly hot water for 10-20mins
-ReedGeek or sandpaper the flat side so it's flat (this is a bulk of the work)
-Use ReedGeek to balance out the sides of the reed, particularly the back sides and the middle areas. I follow the Larry Teal guide to address specific issues on the top side of the reed.
-seal the fibers on the flat side of the reed by rubbing it on blank white printer paper until smooth.
this method has typically worked for me, however I still find myself having to flatten out the flat side of the reed, and tinker a little with the sides using the ReedGeek.
As for the ATG System: I can't really play a reed that hasn't been soaked for a bit, nor one that hasn't been flattened out a bit, however the system suggests doing the side-to-side reed test on NEW reeds, which makes it hard for me to determine what the issues are when the reed isn't flattened. That being said, this method seems fantastic for evening out the sides of the reed, which can be a real chore on the reedgeek, however typically I never work on the tip of the reed with the reedgeek.... am I missing out???
in short: How have YOU been using the ATG system? Do you use new reeds or soak them a bit first?
would appreciate any and all tips!!
I recently decided to grab the ATG System after years of being a devoted/obsessed ReedGeek user and I'm looking for some advice. I've read the book, watched the videos, and it seems like a fantastic method, however I'm sure not everyone who uses the system follows his instructions to a T. Here's what I've previously been doing for reed prep, curious to hear everyone's thoughts and how to implement the ATG system.
My process, breaking in:
-Soak reed in warm to slightly hot water for 10-20mins
-ReedGeek or sandpaper the flat side so it's flat (this is a bulk of the work)
-Use ReedGeek to balance out the sides of the reed, particularly the back sides and the middle areas. I follow the Larry Teal guide to address specific issues on the top side of the reed.
-seal the fibers on the flat side of the reed by rubbing it on blank white printer paper until smooth.
this method has typically worked for me, however I still find myself having to flatten out the flat side of the reed, and tinker a little with the sides using the ReedGeek.
As for the ATG System: I can't really play a reed that hasn't been soaked for a bit, nor one that hasn't been flattened out a bit, however the system suggests doing the side-to-side reed test on NEW reeds, which makes it hard for me to determine what the issues are when the reed isn't flattened. That being said, this method seems fantastic for evening out the sides of the reed, which can be a real chore on the reedgeek, however typically I never work on the tip of the reed with the reedgeek.... am I missing out???
in short: How have YOU been using the ATG system? Do you use new reeds or soak them a bit first?
would appreciate any and all tips!!
1 - 20 of 36 Posts
Well, the stresses on the reed when playing will tend to make it collapse into the mouthpiece window; furthermore, the reed is wetter on the flat side than the curved side; so you will periodically have to go back and flatten the back of a reed.
On baritone I usually find I've got to go back at least one time and re-flatten. After some weeks, though, they seem to stabilize.
Personally I just use a small penknife and a small straightedge. Same knife I use to adjust the strength, side-to-side balance, and adjustment of tip vs. heart vs. shoulder areas. But what do I know? I'm an old fart, who learned reed adjustment back in the day when it was considered standard practice for all single-reed players.
I'm not really sure how you get the back of a reed flat by sanding, if it's out of flat by 0.020" as I've commonly seen, without sanding down the back of the tip to nothing, or trying to hang the tip off the sandpaper and not accidentally going over it, plus people are typically recommending these super fine grits that will take you HOURS to flatten 0.020", and furthermore if you've ever tried to lap a convex surface you'll find that it's real real easy to make it worse, because it just rocks on the high spot. On the other hand, flattening the back with a small knife allows you to remove material exactly where it's needed, and not where it's not needed.
On baritone I usually find I've got to go back at least one time and re-flatten. After some weeks, though, they seem to stabilize.
Personally I just use a small penknife and a small straightedge. Same knife I use to adjust the strength, side-to-side balance, and adjustment of tip vs. heart vs. shoulder areas. But what do I know? I'm an old fart, who learned reed adjustment back in the day when it was considered standard practice for all single-reed players.
I'm not really sure how you get the back of a reed flat by sanding, if it's out of flat by 0.020" as I've commonly seen, without sanding down the back of the tip to nothing, or trying to hang the tip off the sandpaper and not accidentally going over it, plus people are typically recommending these super fine grits that will take you HOURS to flatten 0.020", and furthermore if you've ever tried to lap a convex surface you'll find that it's real real easy to make it worse, because it just rocks on the high spot. On the other hand, flattening the back with a small knife allows you to remove material exactly where it's needed, and not where it's not needed.
What @turf3 said above is exactly my experience!
I like the Reed Geek. I used to accept getting only 2 or 3 reeds to play out of 5. Now, all play. There are still some sweet reeds, but all play. New reed is moistened in my mouth, then flattened. I play it no longer than 10 minutes, and put it in the reed guard. The next day, prior to moistening it, I flatten the reed, this time polishing it, and then I play it for 10 minutes again after moistening. Next day, full practice, and balancing if needed. Each reed lasts 3 to 4 weeks.
My biggest frustration with the Reed geek (one that the ATG seems great at addressing) is fully balancing the sides from the middle to the back of the Reed. Often time the Reedgeek is great for the very edges of the sides but not much further in.
I actually just tried adjusting a Reed that’d been soaking for 10mins and seemed ok to me, and the ATG definitely made some improvements
I actually just tried adjusting a Reed that’d been soaking for 10mins and seemed ok to me, and the ATG definitely made some improvements
"Balancing the sides from the middle to the back"?
I don't understand this.
Do you mean making the stiffness of the reed even from side to side? You'll mostly be working near the tip. Back up the vamp the effectiveness will be less and less, and of course whatever you do in parts of the reed that are on the flat table of the mouthpiece won't do anything.
Seriously, why not just buy a little penknife at the hardware store, a box of Ricos, and practice balancing, softening, clipping and reshaping, etc., till you've got it? Seems a lot easier and more universal than relying on special "systems" and specific tools.
Basically my reeds last till the vamp's too short to keep clipping and reshaping, or I finally get a split, or I chip them. Sometimes I throw new reeds into the mix just because I start worrying that I'm getting used to softer and softer ones, so I introduce a few new ones just to make sure things are staying stable.
I don't understand this.
Do you mean making the stiffness of the reed even from side to side? You'll mostly be working near the tip. Back up the vamp the effectiveness will be less and less, and of course whatever you do in parts of the reed that are on the flat table of the mouthpiece won't do anything.
Seriously, why not just buy a little penknife at the hardware store, a box of Ricos, and practice balancing, softening, clipping and reshaping, etc., till you've got it? Seems a lot easier and more universal than relying on special "systems" and specific tools.
Basically my reeds last till the vamp's too short to keep clipping and reshaping, or I finally get a split, or I chip them. Sometimes I throw new reeds into the mix just because I start worrying that I'm getting used to softer and softer ones, so I introduce a few new ones just to make sure things are staying stable.
Here, save you some money: https://www.grainger.com/product/CL..._-AZHPRV_HPAD-080620&cm_vc=AZHPRV_HPAD-080620
i work primarily towards the vamp (or back end of the reed) to make the lower register less resistant as per the Larry Teal guide, which works great for me when i get it down to where i want it. I've been using the Reedgeek+soaking method for like 5 years and it's been great albeit a little time consuming. My reeds do last a while though, however maintaining them takes too much time."Balancing the sides from the middle to the back"?
I don't understand this.
Do you mean making the stiffness of the reed even from side to side? You'll mostly be working near the tip. Back up the vamp the effectiveness will be less and less, and of course whatever you do in parts of the reed that are on the flat table of the mouthpiece won't do anything.
Seriously, why not just buy a little penknife at the hardware store, a box of Ricos, and practice balancing, softening, clipping and reshaping, etc., till you've got it? Seems a lot easier and more universal than relying on special "systems" and specific tools.
Basically my reeds last till the vamp's too short to keep clipping and reshaping, or I finally get a split, or I chip them. Sometimes I throw new reeds into the mix just because I start worrying that I'm getting used to softer and softer ones, so I introduce a few new ones just to make sure things are staying stable.
Either way, my question is specific to the ATG system, so if you don't use it then that's fine but not what im looking for
I follow the first three steps of your process, except I use a 5 min soak time:
My process, breaking in:
-Soak reed in warm to slightly hot water for 10-20mins
-ReedGeek or sandpaper the flat side so it's flat (this is a bulk of the work)
-Use ReedGeek to balance out the sides of the reed, particularly the back sides and the middle areas.
I break in 3-4 new reeds at a time, and only play them 10-15 min. at a time for the first few days. After that they go into regular rotation for gigs, rehearsals and practice.
My process, breaking in:
-Soak reed in warm to slightly hot water for 10-20mins
-ReedGeek or sandpaper the flat side so it's flat (this is a bulk of the work)
-Use ReedGeek to balance out the sides of the reed, particularly the back sides and the middle areas.
I break in 3-4 new reeds at a time, and only play them 10-15 min. at a time for the first few days. After that they go into regular rotation for gigs, rehearsals and practice.
As to soaking, I don’t generally like to soak a reed much more than 30 seconds at any point. I don’t have luck with them either adjusting or playing on them when water logged. I have been buying reeds that have been ending up a little soft after playing them in and as a result have only really been doing small adjustments with the reed geek lately. When I was using the ATG exclusively, I was starting with a stiffer reed to begin with which gave room to adjust with the sanding block. I did find my reeds ended up much more stabile that way. I actually have a small sd card case I adapted to hold a small glass plate, sanding block and reed geek that I take with me on gigs. If all my reeds would happen to be too stiff at a certain venue, a quick swipe with the sanding block more often than not takes care of it. And the reed geek if I need to flatten the back.
been doing some more experimenting today with the ATG and finding some definite improvements when it comes to balancing the sides of the reed. I'm finding the ReedGeek is great for addressing very specific spots of the reed, however the ATG balances the reed well enough for now I can't imagine using the ReedGeek for much outside of flattening them out.
All of these things seem bit extreme when you can just buy a good penknife and a single edged razor blade. Mostly, it seems to me, you're paying for their instruction book
I have the ATG system, and while I agree that what you are paying for is mostly the book and DVD, I actually think it’s worth it. Very good information in there. Other reed adjustment documents and books are also expensive, often out of print, and in my survey of reed methods, usually flawed in some way.
My process - new reed, soak for 1-2 minutes, flatten the back with the “cheap geek” (lathe tool bit), test for balance (side-to-side play test), adjust balance with sandpaper or reed rush, put reed in case, then play the sucker.
I will test for balance again the next couple times I play the reed, and maybe do a slight adjustment, use the geek if needed, otherwise I just play it until it dies.
I no longer use the ATG sanding block, although if a reed is really way too hard I might use it to bring it down overall. The real key to my process is to buy reeds that are very close to my preferred strength out of the box. Also, I try to keep ahead with my reed supply, I have several boxes of reeds, and I use the oldest ones first. I don’t break reeds in, I discovered that had no effect on reed longevity or reed performance. I generally get about 90% of reeds to play well.
The other key to my process is play a different reed every day. Maybe two reeds if it’s a busy day. Rotate through 6-8 reeds. My sound is dependent on me, not on a reed. The minor differences reed to reed I just play through. Balancing them minimizes the differences. If a reed isn’t working, I go on to the next. If a reed doesn’t work 3 times, out it goes. Once I’m down to 4 reeds, I get 4 more new ones ready.
My process - new reed, soak for 1-2 minutes, flatten the back with the “cheap geek” (lathe tool bit), test for balance (side-to-side play test), adjust balance with sandpaper or reed rush, put reed in case, then play the sucker.
I will test for balance again the next couple times I play the reed, and maybe do a slight adjustment, use the geek if needed, otherwise I just play it until it dies.
I no longer use the ATG sanding block, although if a reed is really way too hard I might use it to bring it down overall. The real key to my process is to buy reeds that are very close to my preferred strength out of the box. Also, I try to keep ahead with my reed supply, I have several boxes of reeds, and I use the oldest ones first. I don’t break reeds in, I discovered that had no effect on reed longevity or reed performance. I generally get about 90% of reeds to play well.
The other key to my process is play a different reed every day. Maybe two reeds if it’s a busy day. Rotate through 6-8 reeds. My sound is dependent on me, not on a reed. The minor differences reed to reed I just play through. Balancing them minimizes the differences. If a reed isn’t working, I go on to the next. If a reed doesn’t work 3 times, out it goes. Once I’m down to 4 reeds, I get 4 more new ones ready.
Yeah, but that's not specific to the specific tools and "system", so we're not supposed to comment.All of these things seem bit extreme when you can just buy a good penknife and a single edged razor blade. Mostly, it seems to me, you're paying for their instruction book
So I looked this thing up: Am I correct that it consists of a small surface plate to use in sanding, some sandpaper, and instructions both printed and video?
I would offer the value in the ATG is the ability to replicate your results very easily and quickly. Yes, I suppose you can do the same with a knife but I never had the same luck as far as consistency of results with a knife compared to the ATG. For me, since I didn’t have a teacher who really went into any details pertaining to adjusting reeds, I found value in the atg package.All of these things seem bit extreme when you can just buy a good penknife and a single edged razor blade. Mostly, it seems to me, you're paying for their instruction book
Couple other thoughts, I have had two mpcs that used either a lavoz med or green box 2 1/2 (alto), and on both just slightly adjusting with the sanding block worked wonders on those. I found the slightly thinner tip after sanding/balancing was beneficial for those. My current tenor mpcs I haven’t found the right strength/cut yet, and when I’ve used the atg I’ve brightened up the reed in a way not beneficial to the sound on those so I think it depends a bit on what you are looking for from the reed; if you are someone who doesn’t like thinning out the tip the atg might not be as helpful, fwiw.
There is also a sanding block, which is meant to be used in a particular, and non-intuitive way. For someone, like yourself, that already has a well defined process and a lot of practice using it, there is probably little benefit to this - or indeed, any other reed preparation system. For someone who has no experience, or is frustrated with their mostly failed attempts at reed adjustment, it’s very valuable.So I looked this thing up: Am I correct that it consists of a small surface plate to use in sanding, some sandpaper, and instructions both printed and video?
Ridenour has an interesting approach to reed work, and the method is very easy to learn. The printed material and video is quite good, and explains the reasoning behind the process very well. For someone with little understanding of how reeds and saxophones actually work, the system provides a lot of value.
That said, and having read and enjoyed many of your posts, @turf3, if you bought it you’d probably feel ripped off.
Is this "sanding block" like what you use for autobody work or drywall work, a rectangular piece of material you wrap sandpaper around and which serves as a backup to it, so you get a flat surface?
yes, the price is high, you get the following: 4 small pieces of sandpaper, the block (i tried to find a DIY alternative but ultimately gave up), glass piece, the book, and the dvd. That being said, the instructions are excellent and easy to follow. His book is also remarkably well written for what it is. so yes, when the package arrives you'll probably go "this is IT?!?!?" as i did. That being said, having stuck with it and re-reading the materials it seems like a worthwhile investment.
of course, if anyone has tips for a DIY alternative to the sanding block I'm all ears! I thought maybe a chalkboard eraser with a thin layer of rubber on either side might do the trick but I chose to bite the bullet and order before giving it a go.
of course, if anyone has tips for a DIY alternative to the sanding block I'm all ears! I thought maybe a chalkboard eraser with a thin layer of rubber on either side might do the trick but I chose to bite the bullet and order before giving it a go.
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