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Reed/Mouthpiece seal

11K views 47 replies 17 participants last post by  Lynn Lewandowski 
#1 ·
Hello,
I hope I am posting to the correct Forum.

I run into issues when playing my alto and my tenor. When I start playing or practicing, my reed seals tightly to the mouthpiece. Playing feels great, I am happy with the tone and projection. About 15-20 minutes in, the tone goes dull, and I loose projection. Intonation becomes inconsistent. When checking the MP/Reed, I notice that there is no "pop", and I can hear air. It is consistently at the back of the lay, near the curve.

The curious thing is that all of my mouthpieces do this. I play a Morgan Florida 6 on tenor, a Morgan Excalibur 5 or a NY Meyer 5 on alto. This also happens once in a while on bari - i play a Berg Larson 95/2. All Vandoren reeds (red on the alto (2.5) and tenor (3) ZZ on the Bari (3).) It happens if I seal the back of the reed with 600 grit paper, or not. It happend on new reeds, usually from the 2nd to 3rd playing.

I retired the NY Meyer thinking the table had issues, but reeds on the Morgan have the same behavior. This leads me to believe that there are reed issues.

A few other details:

I do not spend a tremendous amount of time adjusting reeds, but I do seal the back. It has never helped (actually made things worse) I am comfortable on what I play from a strength perspective. I like how my reeds respond. Harder reeds did not improve anything. I fear a softer reed will mess with intonation too much. My practice room is to the warm side. I have heat coils in the floor (from a boiler) with no thermostat in the room. It does get warm, sometimes I open the window a little to get air circulating. This is the best I can do in my home.

This has been going on for years and would do my nerves well to solve. I play well, but it is not good to loose projection and harmonic depth of tone on a gig, especially on a solo chair.

Thoughts?

Lynn Lewandowski
 
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#2 ·
Vandoren reeds are among the most consistent. Mouthpiece also unlikely the problem, as it would fail the pop test right away.

After 20 minutes of playing, a very dry reed may imbibe enough moisture to warp and fail the pop test. Do you keep the reeds in a sealed moist box in between practicing? Your heating arrangements might be conducive to extremely dry air in winter.
 
#3 ·
Here is an experiment to try. Play for only 10 minutes, and then rewet the reed, and go for another 10, and repeat a few times. This will help determine if your room issues are drying the reed out even when you are playing. Sealing the back sides of your reeds might also be reducing how much moisture is absorbed while playing.

Another thought is try out a synthetic reed to test the room conditions situation, because ambient room conditions really won't matter with a synthetic reed.
 
#4 ·
It sounds like you need to flatten your reeds.

I like to polish the flat of my reeds on a piece of copy paper sitting on a flat surface. Paper is the approximate equivalent of 1000 grit.

Some people prefer to use a reed knife or Reed Geek tool to flatten a reed, but this will only ensure side-to-side flatness, rather than the full length.
 
#5 ·
Hello,
I hope I am posting to the correct Forum.

I run into issues when playing my alto and my tenor. When I start playing or practicing, my reed seals tightly to the mouthpiece. Playing feels great, I am happy with the tone and projection. About 15-20 minutes in, the tone goes dull, and I loose projection. Intonation becomes inconsistent. When checking the MP/Reed, I notice that there is no "pop", and I can hear air. It is consistently at the back of the lay, near the curve.

The curious thing is that all of my mouthpieces do this. I play a Morgan Florida 6 on tenor, a Morgan Excalibur 5 or a NY Meyer 5 on alto. This also happens once in a while on bari - i play a Berg Larson 95/2. All Vandoren reeds (red on the alto (2.5) and tenor (3) ZZ on the Bari (3).) It happens if I seal the back of the reed with 600 grit paper, or not. It happend on new reeds, usually from the 2nd to 3rd playing.

I retired the NY Meyer thinking the table had issues, but reeds on the Morgan have the same behavior. This leads me to believe that there are reed issues.

A few other details:

I do not spend a tremendous amount of time adjusting reeds, but I do seal the back. It has never helped (actually made things worse) I am comfortable on what I play from a strength perspective. I like how my reeds respond. Harder reeds did not improve anything. I fear a softer reed will mess with intonation too much. My practice room is to the warm side. I have heat coils in the floor (from a boiler) with no thermostat in the room. It does get warm, sometimes I open the window a little to get air circulating. This is the best I can do in my home.

This has been going on for years and would do my nerves well to solve. I play well, but it is not good to loose projection and harmonic depth of tone on a gig, especially on a solo chair.

Thoughts?

Lynn Lewandowski
How are you sealing the back of the reeds? My first thought is that you are not doing this right and causing your reeds not to seal since this is happening with all reeds and all mouthpieces which is not very likely to happen.
 
#6 ·
Here is one perspective, from Alexander Reeds, on breaking in and sealing reeds:

http://www.superial.com/mainten_breakin.html

Breaking In A New Reed


We suggest that you break the reeds in by first soaking them for about 2-4 minutes in lukewarm to warm water, and making sure that the whole vamp, and not just the tip alone, gets wet (a reed that is too dry or only wet at the very tip might tend to squeak). Some players, especially in dry weather, prefer a little more soaking time and a some others like immersing the whole reed in the water. Then again, if you soak it for too long, it may end up becoming waterlogged, so try a balanced approach. And make sure you wet the reed each succeeding time you play thereafter, though you may find that as it gets broken in, less soaking time will be necessary.

After the soaking is operation is done, place the reed you want to prepare on glass or a similar flat surface and massage it (starting from the back of the vamp slope) with your finger or fingers several strokes forward towards the tip, in order to help close off the fiber ends and stabilize the cane.

Breaking in for Softer Reeds


Then comes the break-in secret for reeds which feel just right or run a little on the soft side.

Break in the reeds like this by playing them at no louder than mp-m and for the first day only a few minutes and maybe 5-10 minutes the second day.

By breaking them in at mezzo or softer and for not too long in the first couple of days, the reeds should last longer and be more stable for full bore playing later. And contrarily, playing reeds that feel just right or somewhat soft all out at fortissimo from the first day or so might overstress the tips which then lead to shorter service time.

A tendency of these reeds is to harden a little after a few days of playing, so you may find a slightly softer reed that will end up being perfect in a few days after break in.

Harder Reeds


For any reeds which feel considerably hard the first time you play them, you should skip the above Breaking in for Softer Reeds procedure and just play them normally from then on.

You can also easily adjust harder reeds with the steps outlined on our Reed Customizing page. Please note that it's generally easier to soften a reed that is too hard, than the other way around. There are several methods and tools which work well for softening reeds.
 
#10 ·
I did try moisture control, but the reeds were stuffy sounding. Thoughts on how much moisture control to use?
You cannot achieve more than 100% humidity inside the sealed box, so it's not about how much. It's about what you have in there beside of water. Some people use vodka = 60% water + alcohol. Others use Listerine: water + (eucalyptus oil + alcohol). Still others use hair bleach = 97% of water + peroxide. After trying all of the above, I settled on acid. I keep the 'fallow' reed in a vapor bath on a tiny "soap box" raised above some 1/8" of white vinegar in a sealed food container.
 
#9 ·
The part of the description that interests me is the air leaking "at the back of the lay, near the curve". A common "rule of thumb" for how much mouthpiece to take in the mouth is to place the top teeth directly above where the mouthpiece and reed come together. This puts the lower lip slightly beyond that spot and the rest of the muscles around the mouth form a seal slightly past where the reed and mouthpiece separate. This, in itself, should prevent air leaking from the sides of the reed regardless of the attributes of any particular reed.

There is a way to correctly diagnose the flatness of a mouthpiece table by laying a 1200 - 1500 grit sheet of wet or dry sandpaper on a sheet of glass and then drawing the mouthpiece laid front to back toward you across the paper holding it firmly and using light pressure. Looking at the "pattern" on the table after doing one stroke will tell how flat the table is. If it is very close to perfect, this can also be a way to flatten it. Of course removing more than a very small amount of material can alter the lay of the mouthpiece and should only be done by an experienced "refacer".

I have "polished" the backs of my cane reeds for years using the paper technique Dr. G describes. I use the inside of a method book cover over a plate of glass and rub the reed lengthwise back and forth until it starts to "click". It will have a "mirror" finish when done properly. It helps the moisture to form droplets and roll off the back of the reed instead of staying there and adding a sizzling sound to the tone when playing softly. I am not sure the paper is abrasive enough to actually remove wood and flatten the back of the reed like sandpaper would. I will have to look into that.
 
#16 ·
Definitely need a tight metal lig, not a fabric one. Also make sure it's not all the way back at the end of the heel. Bring it forward so the reed still has a tight seal before the break but not so much that the lig ends touch before the screws are tight. Lastly, soak the whole reed for a minute before you play, not just the part that goes in your mouth. It will wick up a lot through the heel and moisten the reed uniformly. A big contributor to warping is having contracted dry parts and expanded wet parts. I've followed this procedure for 40 years and have never had to sand down a reed to get it to seal.
 
#19 ·
I have a Rovner Versa here and it kind of works but it doesn't seal half as well as a bog standard two screw. Get a Selmer or Vandoren two screw ligature and I think it will help. None of the expensive, boutique ligatures I've tried seal as well as a standard metal two screw ligature.
 
#18 ·
I was going to put money on it being a Rovner.

If you have access to even a cheap 2 screw lig see if the problem goes away.

I swear off Rovners because I have had them not seal reeds when Im making mouthpieces. When it happened I was like ***...its flat as hell. I even remade the mpc and it did it again. Then I put on a different lig and it sealed like crazy. I was more than a little annoyed.

I threw them in the trash.

Over time things stretch, things change.

It may not be the lig but try a standard lig and and eliminate the lig as the variable.
 
#20 ·
I was going to put money on it being a Rovner.

If you have access to even a cheap 2 screw lig see if the problem goes away.

I swear off Rovners because I have had them not seal reeds when Im making mouthpieces. When it happened I was like ***...its flat as hell. I even remade the mpc and it did it again. Then I put on a different lig and it sealed like crazy. I was more than a little annoyed.

I threw them in the trash.

Over time things stretch, things change.

It may not be the lig but try a standard lig and and eliminate the lig as the variable.
I have a Rovner Versa here and it kind of works but it doesn't seal half as well as a bog standard two screw. Get a Selmer or Vandoren two screw ligature and I think it will help. None of the expensive, boutique ligatures I've tried seal as well as a standard metal two screw ligature.
+1 to these thoughts. The "plays great for 15 minutes then everything goes sideways" is very typical of a reed that has warped away from the table. If your ligature is even a tiny bit loose, water gets in between the reed and the table, making the problem worse. A ligature that holds the reed flat helps this issue, but does not completely prevent it.

Just use a standard case, or a humidity controlled case without the humidity, let the reed dry flat, then soak it for a few minutes the next time you play it. Don't make things more complicated than you need to.

If the reed warps, flatten the back then put it away to dry. If it happens again throw it out! Sealing the back of a new reed might or might not help. Letting your reeds "age" for 6 or more months before you use also might help. Or not...

I know Wisconsin has variable humidity, but the above approach has worked for me in East Coast, West Coast and mountain (very low humidity in Winter, moderate in summer) environments.
 
#22 ·
Your reed is absorbing water and doing so more on its back side, where it's exposed to your humid breath, than on the front. The second factor is that you are bending the reed over the curved facing, and it's supported along the edges, but it is not supported in the middle, so it's going to collapse into that space. So the back of the reed is becoming convex, and you no longer get a good seal.

You can fiddle around with "polishing" it on paper, or trying to sand it flat, etc., but in the end if you want to make the back flat before the sun burns out, you will probably need to scrape it flat with a small knife. I regularly see warpage that looks to be on the order of 0.5 mm (for a baritone reed). You go ahead and try to get rid of that by rubbing the reed on a piece of paper or 600 grit sandpaper as we see people recommend; I'll go ahead with my little pocket knife, and we'll see who gets finished first.

You will see evidence of the unflatness of the reed most at the point where the facing curve starts, because that's where the sides of the reed still touch (or don't, because it's warped) the facing, but the center part is exposed to high humidity.

As far as ligatures, I don't think a ligature is going to restrain that expansion unless it's way stronger than most, and installed way tighter. Anyone who's done any kind of woodworking can tell you that the force developed by wood in the process of expanding or shrinking is tremendous. A little thin piece of bent sheet metal ain't gonna hold it. I believe that most people who complain about Rovner ligatures are responding to the fact that they provide a consistent clamping action. If you use ligatures that have an inconsistent clamping action, on a reed that's way out of flat, then you can fiddle around with the ligature and make things kind of better, for a while, and then you believe that it matters what particular type of ligature, and the particular attachment process, and how much you tighten one screw versus the other, or clamping plates of this or that type, etc., etc., etc. Well, of course there's tremendous variation, but the variation isn't in the ligature or between ligatures, it's in the back of the reed. With a reed like that, a Rovner isn't going to give you a good seal no matter how much you fiddle with it, because there isn't anything to fiddle with. But if the back of the reed is decently flat, THEN all you need is just a mechanical clamp that's easy to install and consistent (which is the Rovner).

Every other explanation of ligature voodoo gets into stuff like how the thick end of the reed that's tightly clamped to the flat surface of the mouthpiece is somehow supposed to "resonate" (a word that nowadays seems to mean whatever you want it to), or "dampening" (never "damping") the "vibrations" of the thick hard rubber mouthpiece according to which particular sub-sub-sub-variant of ligature design is used this week.

I'm a big one for applying Occam's razor. You've got a mechanical system consisting of two things that are supposed to seal to each other, held together by a clamp. One half of the system is carefully machined and lapped to size and shape with tolerances of 0.001" or so. The other half absorbs water like a sponge and wantonly expands and contracts, and after a few uses its surface is warped by 0.020" or more. And instead of focusing on "part 2" (the reed), which can be corrected in two minutes for zero expenditure of money, we are invited to $pend lot$ of money on different clamp$, in the hopes that somehow the clamp will magically fix the problem.

Get thee to a hardware store, obtain a small pocket knife, and flatten thy reeds; go forth and squeak or squawk no more!
 
#23 ·
Again, one of the quickest ways to see if your problem is related to moisture and warping is to try a synthetic reed. A synth may or may not provide the sound you like, but it should be able to tell you if the problem is due to warpage or a reed that just isn't flat.
 
#25 ·
Or you could just lay a straightedge across the back of the reed, perpendicular to its long axis. It will be obvious.

I expect that synthetics will eventually become convex too, because the center of the reed is unsupported under the bend, but I suspect it would be a lot slower. I don't use synthetic reeds so that's just speculation.
 
#27 ·
Wow - thank you to all for the thoughts and conversation. I have been taking all of the suggestions to heart. My usual "break in" routine is to soak a reed for a few minutes, then play for about 1 min. I have a "break in case" to segregate the new reeds.
In response to all of your great comments, I am working with the back of my reeds on the Vandoren glass and paper. I will continue this process, and let you know how things go.

As for the Rovner ligs - they are newer, should not be stretched. They also have plenty of room on the threads of the screw, and are set on the mouthpiece to "finger tight".
 
#31 ·
Wow - thank you to all for the thoughts and conversation. I have been taking all of the suggestions to heart. My usually "break in" routine is to soak a reed for a few minutes, then play for about 1 min. I have a "break in case" to segregate the new reeds.
In response to all of your great comments, I am working with the back of my reeds on the Vandoren glass and paper. I will continue this process, and let you know how things go.

As for the Rovner ligs - they are newer, should not be stretched. They also have plenty of room on the threads of the screw, and are set on the mouthpiece to "finger tight".
But have you tried to see if you have this problem with any other more conventional lig?
I admit I dont like them but I dont mean to dog on Rovner but again, this a process of removing extraneous variables.
If you test this out on a fresh reed and you still have the problem I am more than willing to accept that I am wrong.
The versa is better than the plain rovners (I recall it has a plate which helps) but you could just be chasing your tail forever until you undertake a process of systematic testing.
 
#34 ·
I've used the same rovner light (and dark) for the past 15 years without any problems.

You can't use them on mouthpieces that are too big.

After you tighten them you have to play them for a few minutes and then sometimes tighten them down again. very tight. My dark does not do this but my light does.

They shouldn't be stretching if you bought the right or close to the right size. They should be totally screwed down all the way to be considered a proper fit.

If you over tighten them on a mouthpiece that is too large then that is what will cause the leather to stretch in order to accommodate the mouthpiece.
 
#35 ·
I too have used Rovner for a number of years, and never had any issues with them loosening or stretching. I also try not to over tighten them. If I have a mouthpiece that has a lot of taper in the lig area, I sometimes find it helpful to change to a 2 screw lig.
 
#36 ·
My only position is that there is a clear problem that needs to be solved.

Doing it systematically only makes sense.

Ive not had this problem ever and I know the tables are flat. I dont sand the bottom of the reed.

I soak them, use them, put them in a cheap lavoz reed holder.

end of story.



another shot in the dark: Are you storing the reeds properly after playing (I cant remember all you said). And ...are you using the same reed on different pieces that have different facing curves? Its not the likely cause but anything is possible within reason. Crossing reeds on different pieces tends to lead more to response issues than sealing ones...but its possible.
 
#39 ·
Well, far be it from me to hinder your investigation. But I have used Rovner ligatures almost exclusively (a few, very few, exceptions) since 1978 or 79 and have never noticed any kind of stretching, or loosening after a few minutes playing, or anything else. I did have one where the screw broke after 20 years or so (I see that recent ones have a slightly different design) and I had to make a repair (I think I drilled and tapped the knob and put a steel stud in), and I have one (maybe the same one) where the sides eventually came loose and I had to re-glue (I think they all have some stitching now to ensure this doesn't happen).

I don't use any of the "special" ones, with cutouts or slots or special pressure plates, or what-have-you, I just use the regular original model, and I have been pretty much completely satisfied with these for 40 years.

But I recognize that I'm a bit of an anomaly in the saxophone equipment world as I don't like to futz around with different equipment: same baritone sax for 35 years, same alto for 40, same main tenor MP for 40 years, same rock and roll tenor MP for 36 years, and so on. (Same wife for almost 30 years...)
 
#43 ·
Hey Lynn!

What a thread you have going here.

I had a very similar problem a few years ago. Reeds would play fine, 20 minutes later no seal. I was using Vandoren M/O ligs and when I played on something else the problem went away. Also, a former student of mine took a lesson at Lawrence (with Jordheim, I think) and he was told those ligs don't hold a seal. I know you're on Rovners, but that would probably be the easiest thing to change. I've got an alto H-lig (D'Addario) that I can loan you if you want. See you Thursday.
 
#44 ·
Absolutely, thank you. This issue is making me crazy. Strangely enough, it rarely happens in the bari (but it has happened.) Dr. G, earlier inthis thread, recommended polishing the back of the reed with paper. I resurfaced all of my reeds on the Vandoren glass, then polished. 3 hours later, no issues. Very consistent. It was a good day.
 
#48 ·
Hi All,

Just an update on my reed woes. For the most part, things are under control. Here is my process:

Day 1: Soak reed in water for 2-3 minutes, then play for 1 minute. Put reed in the "Break in" case, allow to dry overnight.
Day 2: Use the Vandoren Glass Reed Resurfacer on the back of the reed, then polish the reed on paper to a satiny shine. I also use 600 grain paper on the lay, just 2-3 swipes to seal. Play for 2-3 minutes, then dry over night.
Day 3: play the reed. Adjust if needed.
Day 4: move to "active" reed case if it is responding and is suitable.

This seems to work, and the reeds are pretty consistent. We do have very cold temps predicted this week. I will use this as a test.

Lynn
 
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