[johnishere70]

Hey all. I could use a little help on this one, I've got to make a decision by tomorrow. So, check this out:
HORN IN QUESTION: Selmer - Made in France - BREV-SGDG-920653 (Mark VI?) Serial #: 72xxx
BACKGROUND: I haven't had a tenor in my hands in 20 years. The last Mark VI that I owned was a 105xxx series, so I'm not familiar with the horn in this video.
CURRENT SITUATION: I ran across this Mark VI (I believe it's a Mark VI from the BREV product code) here in the Los Angeles area.

QUESTION 1: Anyone have any thoughts as to whether the horn in the video link below is real or counterfeit? [NOTE: There is no "Mark VI" stamp on the bell band - I don't remember what year they started stamping the "Mark VI" on the bell band.]
QUESTION 2: Does this look like the lacquer which was original to 72xxx series Selmers, or does it look like a relacquer?
QUESTION 3: Yes, I've looked around at a few prices, but if you have any thoughts as to what this horn might price at based on visible condition, it would be appreciated.

Thanks much.

VIDEO LINK: YouTube Video of Selmer Mark VI

 

[Sacks Of Phones]

Re-lacquer. If it were original, it would be a dark honey and have an ever so slight green tint to it.

 

[sunpowerusa]

Had pick up on neck lacquer doesn’t look original idk 4500? Probably on eBay if that

 

[Nathan Bellott]

certainly is real IMO but poorly relacquered which makes it look fake. Don't know about the Mark 6 stamp but perhaps it was buffed off in the relaq process
despite the desirable serial #, for a relaq tenor with a neck pick up, that won't fetch more than $5k IMO. Depends on some other factors too

 

[saxcop]

Why would you spend whatever they are asking if you haven't played tenor in 20 years?
To your question 1) real 2) relac 3) 5.5k only because of the desired serial. Though I'm not a believer in that.

 

[Guto]

... in a King case, not really protective, interior not shaped/sized for this horn.
the guy hits the case at least twice during the video. no wonder it's dented in the bow already.

 

[plbgbiz]

I don't know how you guys figured anything out from the video. It's almost like the video was taken to specifically avoid identifying anything. Would it have killed him to stop constantly moving the horn and camera in opposie directions? I couldn't watch it.

 

[DinoB]

For anyone interested, this sax actually was in an auction in Plymouth, Michigan. It sold this morning.

 

[plbgbiz]

 

[DinoB]

In the video you can catch sight of this stand which was to the right and this alto to the left.

 

[johnishere70]

@Sacks Of Phones, @sunpowerusa, @Nathan Bellott - thank you all for your input. It was helpful.

Why would you spend whatever they are asking if you haven't played tenor in 20 years?

?? You're asking why would a sax player, even one who hasn't played tenor in 20 years, why would a sax player buy a Selmer Mark VI when the opportunity came along?!? Sorry, that question is not making sense. But, thanks for your other input.

... in a King case, not really protective, interior not shaped/sized for this horn. the guy hits the case at least twice during the video. no wonder it's dented in the bow already.

I know, right!! That horn has barely left the factory only 66 years ago, and it already has a small dent in it.

I don't know how you guys figured anything out from the video. It's almost like the video was taken to specifically avoid identifying anything. Would it have killed him to stop constantly moving the horn and camera in opposie directions? I couldn't watch it.

Interesting opinion. I'm not sure we were watching the same video. In the video I watched, an entire 37 seconds was spent in just one place (on the bell inscriptions), and an entire 23 seconds was spent in just one other place (the heel serial numbers). One could actually make the argument opposite to yours that it was actually a bit nonsensical to spend so much time in one place in a "video" - considering that they have that invention called a pause button. But, fortunately even my 5th-grader brain realized that obviously the camera was having trouble focusing - which obviously was due to the challenge of filming a highly reflective surface AND in a room with bright lights to compound the problem. Logic, therefore, demonstrates that it was necessary to scroll (move) the camera around those inscriptions because of the reflections and focusing difficulties. For the record, because of the "moving the camera around", I was able to read all of the numbers despite the reflections and focusing issues.

For anyone interested, this sax actually was in an auction in Plymouth, Michigan. It sold this morning.

Yes, DinoB you are correct - the auction was in Plymouth, MI and that 77xxx series Mark VI sold this morning for a final bid of $3,013. Though, just FYI, after including the auction premium (15%) plus sales tax (6%), the final price would be $3,645.73. That's not too bad for a horn in reasonable condition. Also, FYI: No, I'm not the one who bought it. I passed on the horn (stopped bidding) after the $3,500 bid level. For 3 grand I would have bought it and stuck it in the closet just to have around. Between $3K and $3,500 I would have still bought it, but just to resell it. Above $3,500 it just wasn't worth the hassle for this particular horn.

As eluded to earlier, I sold my last MK VI 20 or so years ago for the reason that I eventually was able to escape my mind from the Matrix. You know, the Matrix where sax players have heard all of their sax lives that the "Mark VI" was the god of all horns. I believe there are quite a few more players nowadays who have come to realize that the 'awe' of the "Mark VI" is more about legend and tradition. And for many people it's kind of a follow the herd thing. So, it's for those reasons that I wasn't too overly willing to go to extra lengths to make sure I won the bid on this horn.

But, hey... to each his own.
Thanks again all.
Peace and mustard greens.

 

[Dr G]

@Sacks Of Phones, @sunpowerusa, @Nathan Bellott - thank you all for your input. It was helpful.

?? You're asking why would a sax player, even one who hasn't played tenor in 20 years, why would a sax player buy a Selmer Mark VI when the opportunity came along?!? Sorry, that question is not making sense. But, thanks for your other input.

I know, right!! That horn has barely left the factory only 66 years ago, and it already has a small dent in it.

Interesting opinion. I'm not sure we were watching the same video. In the video I watched, an entire 37 seconds was spent in just one place (on the bell inscriptions), and an entire 23 seconds was spent in just one other place (the heel serial numbers). One could actually make the argument opposite to yours that it was actually a bit nonsensical to spend so much time in one place in a "video" - considering that they have that invention called a pause button. But, fortunately even my 5th-grader brain realized that obviously the camera was having trouble focusing - which obviously was due to the challenge of filming a highly reflective surface AND in a room with bright lights to compound the problem. Logic, therefore, demonstrates that it was necessary to scroll (move) the camera around those inscriptions because of the reflections and focusing difficulties. For the record, because of the pause button and the "moving the camera around", I was able to read all of the numbers.

Yes, DinoB you are correct - the auction was in Plymouth, MI and that 77xxx series Mark VI sold this morning for a final bid of $3,013. Though, just FYI, after including the auction premium (15%) plus sales tax (6%), the final price would be $3,645.73. That's not too bad for a horn in reasonable condition. Also, FYI: No, I'm not the one who bought it. I passed on the horn (stopped bidding) after the $3,500 bid level. For 3 grand I would have bought it and stuck it in the closet just to have around. Between $3K and $3,500 I would have still bought it, but just to resell it. Above $3,500 it just wasn't worth the hassle for this particular horn.

As eluded to earlier, I sold my last MK VI 20 or so years ago for the reason that I eventually was able to escape my mind from the Matrix. You know, the Matrix where sax players have heard all of their sax lives that the "Mark VI" was the god of all horns. I believe there are quite a few more players nowadays who have come to realize that the 'awe' of the "Mark VI" is more about legend and tradition. And for many people it's kind of a follow the herd thing. So, it's for those reasons that I wasn't too overly willing to go to extra lengths to make sure I won the bid on this horn.

But, hey... to each his own.
Thanks again all.
Peace and mustard greens.

So you come asking for advice and then belittle people about playing Selmers.

Welcome?

 

[DinoB]

They charge tax on the buyer's premium, so actually the total would be $3013 * 1.15 * 1.06 = $3672.85

 

[johnishere70]

So you come asking for advice and then belittle people about playing Selmers.

So, we're calling individual opinions "belittling" now??
I gave my opinion that "the 'awe' of the "Mark VI" is more about legend and tradition."
I gave my opinion that "many people follow the herd." {Note: the word "many" means 'many' - it does not mean nor imply 'all', nor does it mean or imply 'none'.}
Feel free to share your opinion on where the problem is with me sharing my opinions.

 

[johnishere70]

They charge tax on the buyer's premium, so actually the total would be $3013 * 1.15 * 1.06 = $3672.85

Oh, yeah! Good catch. I almost forgot that back around 2021 they started also charging the 6% use tax. And keep in mind that the "15%" buyer's premium is the 'discount' rate for cash purchases. If you put your purchase on a credit card the buyer's premium is 18% (plus the 6% sales tax plus 6% use tax). So, the total price (on that $3,013 winning bid) on the credit card would've been $3,768.66

 

[JazzWithoutANet]

Forgive the newb in the room, but does a Mark VI that’s been re-lacquered somehow lower its value? Can it still be restored to its engineered glory?

 

[NO SAX]

So, we're calling individual opinions "belittling" now??
I gave my opinion that "the 'awe' of the "Mark VI" is more about legend and tradition."
I gave my opinion that "many people follow the herd." {Note: the word "many" means 'many' - it does not mean nor imply 'all', nor does it mean or imply 'none'.}
Feel free to share your opinion on where the problem is with me sharing my opinions.

So your plan was to followed the herd but the price was too high?

 

[johnishere70]

Forgive the newb in the room, but does a Mark VI that’s been re-lacquered somehow lower its value? Can it still be restored to its engineered glory?

Yes, a relacquer does lower the value of a horn. This is due to several reasons:
1) One is that the relacquer process, especially if not done well, can change the character of the sound of the horn. Different finishes, or even the way that the same manufacturer's metal finish is applied (temperature, cure time, etc.), affects the way that the metal resonates.
2) Another reason is that the relacquer is rarely as good appearance-wise as the original finish.
3) Also, the relacquer - even if done to a high degree of quality - rarely looks the same as the original. Case in point: The Mark VI in the video that I posted, the relacquer is not particuarly 'bad', but it has much more yellow hue highlights than the original Mk VI's (especially the earlier horns up through the mid 1960s). The original horn had a finish with more depth, and a deeper copper/bronze hue.
4) And also for the reason after the original finish is stripped off and the horn is relacquered, it simply is no longer all 'original' anymore.

No, there's no way to go back in time and make the horn into its original glory in terms of appearance or value. Mechanically, though - there is a lot of room to restore the horn to original, or in some cases even better-than-original playing condition.

 

[johnishere70]

So your plan was to followed the herd but the price was too high?

Feel free to re-read my comment above:

For 3 grand I would have bought it and stuck it in the closet just to have around. Between $3K and $3,500 I would have still bought it, but just to resell it.

I never said that Selmer Mark VI's were garbage. They're good horns; and they did have a great look. But, as a professional, just like any other professional carpenter, or mechanic, or musician, I do have more than one tool and do acquire more occasionally. I still have a student line 1960s Buescher tenor downstairs that's similar to the first tenor I played in high school. And I've got a $40 King Cleveland alto hanging on the wall in the club (in the house). Yeah? So? Is there something wrong having an extra horn that is not your main horn? I'll save you the time of a response: Of course there's nothing wrong with it.

Maybe you're a Selmer fan. Nothing wrong with that - so, don't get butt hurt just because someone else, me, is not the same level of fan. Or is there some part of you, deep down inside of you, that is feeling that there is some kernel of truth in what I said... and it struck a nerve? Hmmmmm.

“I'm trying to free your mind, Neo NO SAX. But I can only show you the door horn. You're the one that has to walk through it go play it. You have to let it all go.

It's dangerous, the mind has trouble letting go. I've seen it before and I'm sorry. I did said what I did said because... I had to."

HAHAHAHA

 

[Dr G]

Feel free to re-read my comment above:



I never said that Selmer Mark VI's were garbage. And as a professional, just like any other professional carpenter, or mechanic, or musician, I do have more than one tool and do acquire more occasionally. I still have a student line 1960s Buescher tenor downstairs that's similar to the first tenor I played in high school. Yeah? So? Is there something wrong having an extra horn that is not your main horn? I'll save you the time of a response: Of course there's nothing wrong with it.

Maybe you're a Selmer fan. Nothing wrong with that - so, don't get butt hurt just because someone else, me, is not the same level of fan. Or are you feeling that there is some kernel of truth in what I said that struck a nerve? Hmmmmm.

“I'm trying to free your mind, Neo NO SAX. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it. You have to let it all go.

It's dangerous, the mind has trouble letting go. I've seen it before and I'm sorry. I said what I said because... I had to."

AHHHH HAHAHA

This is soooooooooooooo informative. Worth saving.