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Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

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#1 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

Hey folks...Im new here and posted a thread on the Buescher frum & got some very good replies. As this forum is more specific to C Melody I thought I'd post here and see what experts think......... below the link to the photos below (actually the ebay ad) I posted my original thread post as a little intro.
Fester

I thought I'd share a few photos to see if there was anything that jumps off the page I should know...Hope you will take the time to view...Its the Link to the original ebay add but it shows the add and you can select enlarged pictures before I got it...Any comments would be appreciated...Thanks Fester

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...K:MEWNX:IT

Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)
Hi! I'm Fester I am new to this forum & hoping for the best! I am a novice to these sites and initially registered & left a question about my new/old sax on another popular forum…and after a week..."zilch"...I see however on this site, people actually respond
I just found a 1923 Buescher True Tone SN# 139572. I bought it cheap (I think) and my "bucket list" quest is to see if I can bring it back to life & then learn to play it (yes I said learn to play it).
I picked the C-MEL because I wanted it to be "out of the ordinary" (at least for modern times) and my passion is antiques anyway & this clearly qualifies.... I've been researching & soaking up C Melody info like a sponge & I know I made the right choice. This sax has no dents and had no repairs...it is silver (almost black) & had a good neck but no MP or case....I started cleaning it with "Silver Foam' and so far I am happy!
Now my (initial) questions...
A) I know the year, and the SN (139572) but what else can I learn from that about my sax (model, date, ????)
B) I am going to try to get period MP, Reeds, lig etc… what brand names I should search for?
C) while cleaning it (I am confident by closely examining the area, it was not existing and I or father time at any rate did it) the support post between the bell & body "let go" at the body.....Is that a big deal repair (new solder /super glue)...or am I screwed)?
"Hoping for a reply!"
Fester
 
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#2 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

...while cleaning it (I am confident by closely examining the area, it was not existing and I or father time at any rate did it) the support post between the bell & body "let go" at the body.....Is that a big deal repair (new solder /super glue)...or am I screwed)?
Repair (re-solder) required immediately... Not a biggy if there isn't a huge gap where it should be soldered, but could have affected alignment of bell pad-cups. Might just have partially dislodged the bell-to-bow joint as well. Dont hold it by the bell until you get that fixed [rolleyes]

P.S. Welcome !
 
#3 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

Fester....Good name, probably, & hopefully, inappropriate.
Welcome to the world of C.
A/ I could not retrieve the link you provided but, from the information supplied, yours is a Buescher TT (True Tone). A very good horn, certainly not rare but owned & played by many of us here.
To learn more about Cmelody/C tenors I would direct you to Alan Tucker's splendid & dedicated site at:- http://cmelodysax.co.uk/blog/
B/ Some would say that the original mouthpieces were the death knell of the C tenor.....very small tip, lifeless and stuffy; so, unless you intend to slick down your hair & adopt a centre parting and co-respondents' shoes in your 1920s Tribute Band, you would be strongly advised to bring your horn to life with a modern alto, tenor or C Melody mouthpiece. Personally I have never tried a modern C tenor piece but the personality of the horn can be biased to either tenor-like or alto-like by your choice of mouthpiece.
C/ The bell brace.
It is a five minute repair. Either take it to a tech, or, clean up the mating faces with lighter fuel, press the surfaces together & apply heat with a small propane flame torch....ie. re-solder. Without doubt there will be traces of solder on both surfaces....enough for them to re- fuse.
I admire your motives....I have three & have been playing them for some twenty years in Blues/ Rock bands....I love them & use them as dinky tenors.
 
#4 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

Will do.. thanks to both....I will be careful until its fixed...
CB if you would send me an email: lojackfl@gmail.com I would respond with the pictures attached...I dont have a way to upload then to the web...
Thanks in advance!
 
#5 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

Will do.. thanks to both....I will be careful until its fixed...
CB if you would send me an email: lojackfl@gmail.com I would respond with the pictures attached...I dont have a way to upload then to the web...
Thanks in advance!
You have a way to upload them to the forum. Next to the "Post Quick Reply" button is another one that says "Go Advanced". Click that. You'll get more options, including the ability to post funny faces and a button way down at the end that says "Manage Attachements". Click that and you'll get a pop-up window that lets you browse your computer and attach up to 5 photos.
 
#6 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

Fester....please tell me more about "Silver Foam".
At the moment I have a totally dismantled silver plated sax spread all over the dining room table.
My hands are black, sore, & bleeding from innumerable needle spring stabs.
Cunning things needle springs...have you noticed how they are arranged in opposing pairs? When polishing the body of the horn it is so easy to prick one's finger, only to instinctively & sharply recoil. This results in comprehensively impaling the finger on the opposing spring.
Why should springs end in a sharp point?
I have been looking for "Magic Cleano Silver Spray" for years....spray it on & wash it off to reveal a sparkling clean sax....or are we meant to suffer?
 
#7 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

CB here is a link reference "Hagerty's Silver Foam" from a place that carries it but EBAY has it also...both links below....but yes we maybe meant to suffer (or pay someone else which also makes me suffer!)

http://www.nancysilver.com/mm5/merc...roduct_Code=17SF8&Category_Code=Hagerty_Store

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_tr...hagerty+silver+foam&_sacat=See-All-Categories

MADDENMA - Thanks for the tip reference posting the picks...I will try it!
 
#8 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

I will try to upload this pictures of my 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572. these are the condition it was in when I found it. Looks like it will take to uploads to get them all in...Any comments welcome! Thanks Fester
 
#9 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

Here is the second set Thank you very much!
 
#10 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

Fester, thanks for the gen on "Silver Foam".
I think that your horn must take the record for the most tarnished ever....perhaps it has never been used & that you have, in effect, a new but very dirty horn.
I look forward to photographs of the miraculous effect of "Silver Foam"! Do you have to dismantle the horn or simply squirt at random & then wash it off. In other words, does the foam have any detrimental effect upon pads, springs etc?

PS. Just noticed that it is available only in America....Grrrr
 
#11 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

Wow. I must be lucky, Capt. I too have a C Melody lying on my workbench, totally stripped and now shining beautifully. I didn't draw ANY blood! Thanks, Fester, for the foam polish tip. Just waiting for my alcohol lamp and I'll start putting it back together. It's the Pan American. My Buescher TT is playing nicely with a Meyer Alto mpc. The Holton is awaiting a neck cork.
 
#15 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

Wow. I must be lucky, Capt. I too have a C Melody lying on my workbench, totally stripped and now shining beautifully. I didn't draw ANY blood! Thanks, Fester, for the foam polish tip. Just waiting for my alcohol lamp and I'll start putting it back together. It's the Pan American. My Buescher TT is playing nicely with a Meyer Alto mpc. The Holton is awaiting a neck cork.
Sandy.
If you did not employ Alan's tip & you have not impaled yourself on the needle springs then I can only assume that you coaxed your wife into cleaning it. :bluewink:
 
#12 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

Lewis - when cleaning saxes now I invariably slide a small sleeve over the end of the springs that have attacked me most in the past.

The sleeves are obtained from stripping some mains old pvc cable/flex, and pulling one inch or more (approx) lengths of insulation off the internal brown, blue and green/yellow wires. Other people impale small nubs of 'bottle neck cork' on the points.

Even if to thin to go 'all the way on' the fatter springs, at least it shields the end. I guess that's why they got the name 'needle springs'. Ouch !
 
#14 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

Lewis - when cleaning saxes now I invariably slide a small sleeve over the end of the springs that have attacked me most in the past.
Alan....you always were more sensible than I.
Actually, in the past, I have done exactly as you suggest but, now that I am so much more experienced I was not about to fall for the old "spring injections" again....oh really!
 
#13 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

Hi Fester,
welcome to the c-melody club.
I love my c-mel Buescher, and I am sure you will have fun with yours too.
As Capitain B stated, don't worry too much about period mouthpieces. Modern ones will probably be your choice anyway. Trying a bunch of different ones to find out the one(s) that give you the sound you want without intonation issues is part of the vintage horn fun.
 
#16 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

CB,
The Silver foam is actually a cream, but when you use a damp sponge it gets foamy...Yeah, I am trying without disassembly but I think it will have to be taken apart....I havn't gotten the nerve to try to do that, I'm afraid I might mess it up and never get it back together LOL...anyone know a fool proof (emphasis on fool) way to break it down & put it back together? {CMELODYSAX any idea????}... as for the pads...oh yeah, I think they will be messed up if you foam it up (if the rinsing by dunking in the bath tub doesnt do them in first) LOL...but I will need to replace them anyway! As for the silver foam, Im sure one of the ebay listings could ship no? Hey thanks, I think you guys have me covinced to find a modern version of the MP
 
#17 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

Fester,
one of the problems of polishing it without disassembling it is that you will mess up the pads. This only is a problem if the pads are any good.
The other and more serious problem is that the polishing products are always a bit abrasive. When you polish the sax without disassembling the moving parts, some of this product will get in the cracks and stay between the surfaces that should be lubricated since they rub against each other (rods and keys) as you play. This will cause abrasion and create gaps and loose keys soon.
 
#18 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

Yeah well it already needs the repad job without a doubt! I just need a good take down & rebuild "go-by" plan (let me know if anybody has one) and work up the confidence to do it!... and as it was an turns out, I stopped at a local music store about an hour ago (i didn't have it with me as it was unexpected stop). But they do repairs & I described the single contact solder (bell to body brace/post at the body) and was pleasently surprised, they said it should be $30 bucks. I should have left well enough alone but asked about the repad...$400 bucks....$700 bucks for an "overhaul".....I had an idea so no shock....but I'm in no rush & whatever I can learn to do my self will be part of "my quest"
Fester
 
#20 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

I did it all by myself, Captain Beeflat. The sax was mounted on the table leg. I tore up my sliver cleaning cloth into narrow strips and was very careful. My wife has better things to do.
 
#23 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

Fester:

FWIW, let me tell you what's happened with my new old Buescher, which seems to be in somewhat similar condition to yours.

I live in LA, where there are number of shops that work on winds. So I got three opinions.

Dr #1, in a little shop on a side street in Hollywood, knew about my horn over the phone, before he'd even seen it.
Me: "I just bought an old C-Melody Sax, and it needs some work, but it's not too bad.
Dr #1: "That's what you think!"

I probably shouldn't even have bothered driving across town to his place, but I hate to judge people, so I gave it a shot. He told me flat out that every pad leaked, before he put the light in it. He reaffirmed this after putting the light in. He said it needed a complete overhaul. I said I didn't have the money for that, and I just wanted to fix a few problems that I knew would make the difference between playable and unplayable. He said nothing but a complete overhaul would do, and he wouldn't do anything less, and it would cost $850, and that the horn wasn't worth it. In other words, when he heard I wasn't going to spend $850, he wanted me out of the store as soon as possible.

Dr. #2 came recommended to me by the band teacher at the local high school, who has her instruments fixed there. So I hauled out beyond the edge of town (which can be quite a distance in LA) during lunch. Dr. #2 said it needed a complete repad, which costs $600, but he could do a student-grade repad for $450. It wouldn't be professional quality, but he could do that. (I thought to myself that this guy has no standards, just markets.) I said I didn't have that kind of money and I just wanted to get it up to a basic playable level, so I could find out if I'm going to be able to learn the sax. Then, I would decide if I wanted to invest seriously in an instrument. He replied that he supposed he could do a couple of the mechanical fixes, leave the pads alone but maybe reset two of them, for $250.

Now, both these doctors took the attitude that "playable" and "perfect" were the same thing. That bespeaks professional standards and pride of craftsmanship. But it's also a racket.

Dr. #3 told me all the pads were old and bad. I said, yes, I knew that, but some were bad and some not so bad. I told him I just wanted to invest enough to find out if the sax is really for me. He said, "How much do you plan to spend?" Now the conversation was going where I wanted it to. If he hadn't said it, I was about to say, "Suppose I only had $100 to spend on fixing this..."

So I said, $100. He shook his head sadly and said he couldn't do all the pads for $100.

I said, "Of course not. But could you just do the worst ones, and fix the tenon on the neck so it can be tightened properly, and level the action between the Db and Eb keys?"

And he said, "Some of the pads not all of the pads, huh?" And he thought about it, and said he could make it playable for $100. He indicated that he would do more than $100 worth of work, but he would charge $100. And replace some of the pads. With resonator pads!..."

The following day when I returned there to have him fix the horn, he was out to lunch. One of his associates wanted to write up the horn, but I said I needed to speak to the doc, and I explained that we had a deal about what he would do. The Associate remarked that the Dr. was very flexible about his pricing, and liked to help people out.

Interestingly, Dr #3 works in the shop of major national music chain, but gets to set the prices, Dr #2 works for a small local chain, and the most expensive Dr #1 is a private shop.

In about a week, I'll let you know how it comes out.

I mention all this with reference to your experiences and your decision to try it yourself. I think that's a great ambition. But if you find yourself in over your head and decide to change course, take a little time to shop the Doctors. Not all Doctors have the same attitude, the same ethics, or the same prices. I've seen more than a few shops' websites (here in the US... don't know what part of the world you're located in but I gather from the reference to $$$ that you're somewhere in the US) that talk about complete overhauls for $350-$450.

Best of luck.
 
#24 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

Now, both these doctors took the attitude that "playable" and "perfect" were the same thing. That bespeaks professional standards and pride of craftsmanship. But it's also a racket.
Those mechanics were very nearly right. A saxophone has to play very nearly perfectly to be playable. Nothing worse than fighting a recalcitrant horn.
Particularly for a beginner, it is vital that the horn performs properly... faults in their horn is probably why many beginners give up. It is no fun playing a horn which is either difficult or impossible to play.
Also, how does one measure "playable"...does the mechanic say "For £200 I will make it play well, but only in the top register...half of the notes will work?"
Most decent sax mechanics can take a horn apart in an hour or so: especially a modern one which is regularly played. Faced with something 80 years old that had spent most of it's life under a bed in it's case, the situation is vastly different....any part of the mechanism could have seized, resulting in much work, time, and foul language to get it apart. Also parts are no longer available.
I suggest that these mechanics were tacitly saying "Please take it to someone else, it could be trouble".
This is part of the reason why I carry out my own repairs & maintenance.
 
#25 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

Cap'n: I take your point, but in this case, we weren't talking in the abstract. It was very clear which mechanisms were working, which needed work, which holes were leaking badly, which had old pads but were not necessarily leaking.

Interestingly, none of the three techs played the horn. It was all visual, and all theoretical.

I, having played the horn, knew that I was getting good response on most of the notes, but having distinct problems on certain ones. I could prioritize (assuming that fixing one of the problems didn't throw off something that I accounted as "working"). I knew what I wanted fixed: just enough to allow me to play it for a while, to decide how much I ultimately wanted to invest in it. This plan, of course, runs contrary to some tech's business agendas, but there's nothing unreasonable about it.

I would love to be able to carry out my own repairs, but I don't think I have the time to learn the skills adequately very soon, nor can I really afford to destroy a nice horn in the process of learning (an unfortunately likely result). I expect to learn, bit by bit. But only if I have a working horn to play, that develops small problems here and there that will teach me repair. I don't have Fester's courage to just plunge in, at the moment, on an entire overhaul. (More power to him!)
 
#26 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

Thanks for your words! I appreciate both you're & the Captain's observations. I have had the "auction bug" which I inherited from my father (although my sax did not come from an auction per se but was from Ebay!) I mention that because antique auctions are my addiction! ....I have learned a lot about antiques and the appreciation of things based more on their personal appeal to me than their value. Also, the appreciation of its craftsmanship or beauty having withstood time.. That is important to point out because I see this sax as having "survived" for 88 years (truly an antique in its own right) & although black with patina, it has potential. I made mistakes many many times while "collecting" over the years, but lately been right more often than wrong! So I am willing to appreciate it for what it is. It is free to be an optimist but very costly to be pessimistic….. The biggest challenge is to take my time and like you, look and learn before "stepping off the curb"... I bought the book "The Haynes Saxophone Manual" after I see it I will know how If I think I can handle it……As I said in my first post…..the first part of my quest was to resurrect one…second, to take pleasure in learning to play that piece!
 
#29 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

p Also, the appreciation of its craftsmanship or beauty having withstood time.. That is important to point out because I see this sax as having "survived" for 88 years (truly an antique in its own right) & although black with patina, it has potential..first post…..the first part of my quest was to resurrect one…second, to take pleasure in learning to play that piece!
I applaud your sentiments....shared, I feel sure, by many here.
If I found a 1933 supercharged 1750 Alfa Romeo with bodywork by Zagato in a barn somewhere, I would not turn it down because it was dirty & the tyres were flat......with caveats however....I would need to be a pretty good driver to deal with the tricky crash gearbox, the cable brakes & "back to front" gearchange.
Similarly, & assuming from your posts that this is your first saxophone, I would be reluctant to learn on a vintage model with similar idiosyncrasies.....the best of luck to you.
 
#28 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

Well, I hope you'll keep us updated on the adventure, and take pictures.
We look forward to that.
If it's any encouragement I recently took delivery of a Martin C tenor...all complete & original, but dirty. It played perfectly.
As a first requirement, not knowing it's history, I took it apart to oil & clean it.
On reassembly it still worked perfectly.
It could therefore be argued that I achieved nothing, except the comfort in the knowledge that all is well...no hidden nasties waiting to bite.
 
#30 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

So here's what happened with Dr. #3. He, too, felt that he couldn't do a halfway job, so he replaced about 3 times as many pads as he'd agreed to or indicated he would beforehand, made a bunch of other repairs, but still charged me the ridiculously low fee we agreed on. It plays gorgeously, (much better than I play!) and I'm real happy. (I have SO much work ahead of me... and I love it.)

If anyone wants to get repairs done by him, his name is Mory Khaksa. He works at the Sam Ash store in Canoga Park, CA, 818-709-5650. He formerly worked at Sam Ash on 48th St in New York City. I highly recommend him.
 
#31 ·
Re: Fester's New C Melody - 1923 Buescher True-Tone SN# 139572 "Hoping for a reply!" (Introduction)

Nice!...its nice to know there are some out there that care about quality and service!...you are lucky to find him!
Fester
 
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