[Pyromonk]

Good day.

I have removed the palm keys on my unlacquered Trevor James Signature Custom to clean off corrosion and dried spit. They were connected to the body of the instrument via steel springs. The springs do not seem to have been hooked into place by anything (they are screwed onto the keys, however), and now I'm wondering if they were simply glued to the body. They came off easily, so it would almost appear as if they weren't secured in any way beforehand.

Also, the cylinder plastic protector came off the palm D, and I have a similar question with regard to that. Was it just put onto the perpendicular rod or was it glued in place?

I would appreciate an answer from someone with experience in saxophone repair or assembly.

Thank you very much in advance.

 

[milandro]

palm key springs are flat springs (not needle) they are connected to the key with a screw and on to the body there are (generally) 3 slots where they are supposed to be positioned between the leader-slot space so that they cannot move and create the spring action.

I am not so sure of what you mean by plastic protector of the D palm key?

 

[Pyromonk]

[...] there are (generally) 3 slots where they are supposed to be positioned between the leader-slot space so that they cannot move and create the spring action.

I am not so sure of what you mean by plastic protector of the D palm key?

Are they glued to those 3 slots? Or are the ends of the springs simply placed there?

By plastic protector I mean something similar to what's on most octave key mechanisms these days:

 

[milandro]

No they are not glued, the end of the flat spring is simply placed in between the “ leader slot” and stays there because cannot move left or right.


I thought you may mean something like this..... but where is this tube on the Palm D key of your horn?

The octave key tube is not, normally ,glued.

 

[Pyromonk]

That seems... rather unsecure.

This is the plastic protector:

I'm assuming it's not glued either and is just held in place between the rods when assembled. To avoid further confusion, this is the longest (bottom) palm key.

 

[milandro]

well, those springs are never glued on the body and they are securely held in place by the slots and the tension of the spring itself. If for some reason you have now reduced the tendion they may not be as tight as they are supposed to be but they are certainly NOT glued.

In some saxophones the placement is easier than others. My super 20 for example has a more fiddly placement but way more precise than other saxophones but in all saxophones that I have this happens placing the end of the flat spring into a determined, slotted or held in place position

In none of my saxophones I have anywhere a plastic spacer (or whatever the function is of that plastic cylinder b) like that. But I cannot see why it should be glued.

On a side note when you want to take a close up of a small part on the camera or telephone preferences hit the “ macro” fuction ( generally marked with a flower, often a tulip)

 

[Pyromonk]

In none of my saxophones I have anywhere a plastic spacer (or whatever the function is of that plastic cylinder b) like thatbBut I cannot see why it should be glued.

On a side not when you want to take a close up of a small part on the camera or telephone preferences hit the " macro" fuction ( generally marked with a flower, often a tulip)

Thank you so much! The plastic cylinder serves as a buffer between palm F and palm E♭. It's a "modern" horn. I don't remember if new Yamahas have anything similar though.

Thank you for that too. I forgot, because I'm extremely tired (I've been cleaning it for 5 hours straight).

Update: turns out I was so tired I confused palm F with palm D

 

[wanderso]

Let down by your title--thought you had some innovation involving drone strings or some such added to a wood wind instrument.

The "plastic cylinder" on the palm-F is the contact point for the foot of the palm-Eb, so that should help you locate it. In some designs there is no cork on the palm-Eb foot, so without the (more likely--silicon rubber) tube, there would be loud metal-to-metal contact when you depress the palm-Eb.

The leaf springs for the palm keys actually slide a small distance in their grooves when you depress the keys. If you glued them to the body, the palm keys would be frozen. You might clean out the groove in which they sit with a Q-tip and then put the tiniest dab of cork grease on the tip of the leaf spring before reassembly to lubricate that small motion.

Guess you have figured out that you should take lots of close-up pictures in good light from many angles before you disassemble your horn if you are not familiar with repair. And do not work on it when you are tired!

 

[Pyromonk]

Let down by your title--thought you had some innovation involving drone strings or some such added to a wood wind instrument.

The "plastic cylinder" on the palm-F is the contact point for the foot of the palm-Eb, so that should help you locate it. In some designs there is no cork on the palm-Eb foot, so without the (more likely--silicon rubber) tube, there would be loud metal-to-metal contact when you depress the palm-Eb.

The leaf springs for the palm keys actually slide a small distance in their grooves when you depress the keys. If you glued them to the body, the palm keys would be frozen. You might clean out the groove in which they sit with a Q-tip and then put the tiniest dab of cork grease on the tip of the leaf spring before reassembly to lubricate that small motion.

Guess you have figured out that you should take lots of close-up pictures in good light from many angles before you disassemble your horn if you are not familiar with repair. And do not work on it when you are tired!

Sorry to have let you down. As far as I'm aware, not all saxophones have metal strings attached to palm keys, so I had to clarify it somehow.

Maybe one day I will do something more innovative when I am more familiar with disassembly and repair. I was kind of scared to take it apart in the past and let my technician do it. Given the current global situation, I have no choice but to learn things myself, and finding information online is difficult.

Thank you so much for providing more information about the materials and the why and how things function.

I wasn't tired at first, I got more tired as time went on. I guess, I could've always broken down the cleaning into a few separate days and played flute in the interim, but I wanted the horn to be ready by tomorrow, so I went too far.
Taking close-up pictures is a great idea, I haven't thought of that. I used paper with labels instead. I thought it would be enough for something as simple as palm keys.

 

[whaler]

Plastic should never be part of a sax, except that little octave tube.
That’s sone shoddy construction that you know will become an issue.

 

[Pyromonk]

Plastic should never be part of a sax, except that little octave tube.
That's sone shoddy construction that you know will become an issue.

Nevertheless, the world-famous MKVI features a plastic thumb rest and a plastic thumb hook.

I didn't know what the material was in my case, so I gave it a name based on how it reflects light (which is similar to plastic).

 

[wanderso]

metal strings attached to palm keys

SPRINGS, dude, they're called SPRINGS.

 

[wanderso]

Plastic should never be part of a sax, except that little octave tube.
That's sone shoddy construction that you know will become an issue.

Perhaps, but current Selmer Paris horns feature clear silicon rubber sleeves in several locations as bumpers or bearing surfaces. The low-C# and F-bar regulation adjusting screws have silicon domes as their contact points.

 

[turf3]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using plastic in mechanisms, when properly designed.

OP, the little features (grooves) where the end of the flat spring rides on the body of the horn, are called "cradles" (at least that's what I've always heard). You want to put a little oil or grease there (or on the tip of the spring) before reassembly.

 

[Pyromonk]

SPRINGS, dude, they're called SPRINGS.

That was a bit uncalled-for, given I was exhausted and English is not my native language, but yes, you are correct.

Perhaps, but current Selmer Paris horns feature clear silicon rubber sleeves in several locations as bumpers or bearing surfaces. The low-C# and F-bar regulation adjusting screws have silicon domes as their contact points.

Thank you for letting me know what the proper term for those things is, I really appreciate it.

 

[JayeLID]

Guess you have figured out that you should take lots of close-up pictures in good light from many angles before you disassemble your horn if you are not familiar with repair. And do not work on it when you are tired!

Good advice. AND...please POST those photos at the START of your thread.

Not to be a wiseguy, but...I have been repairing horns for 20 years and it has been very difficult to understand exactly what this conversation is about.

Proper nomenclature/terminology helps considerably....

...now, understandably as a novice at disassembly, and not being a primary-language english-speaker (btw, Pyro... your english is pretty good)....this would happen.

Which is why photos help a lot.

The palm key has the following anatomy:

the key itself
the flat spring (which whould mount to underside of the key with a small screw (do NOT unscrew that screw, trust me)
the spring cradle (this is soldered to the body)
the pivot rod (which inserts through the 'key barrel' and mounts the keys to):
the key posts
...and lastly, any regulating materials (in this case, foot corks and your little plastic tube/bumper there)

 

[turf3]

And you could break the key down into its component parts:

the arm
the key touch
the pad cup
the tube or hinge tube

In most cases these parts are made from separate bits of brass and manufactured by various processes according to their form, then brazed together to make the complete key.

 

[PigSquealer]

Page two from the map to Oz. (Page 1 highly resembles an assembled saxophone)

 

[PigSquealer]

Good advice. AND...please POST those photos at the START of your thread.

Not to be a wiseguy, but...I have been repairing horns for 20 years and it has been very difficult to understand exactly what this conversation is about.

Proper nomenclature/terminology helps considerably....

...now, understandably as a novice at disassembly, and not being a primary-language english-speaker (btw, Pyro... your english is pretty good)....this would happen.

Which is why photos help a lot.

The palm key has the following anatomy:

the key itself
the flat spring (which whould mount to underside of the key with a small screw (do NOT unscrew that screw, trust me)
the spring cradle (this is soldered to the body)
the pivot rod (which inserts through the 'key barrel' and mounts the keys to):
the key posts
...and lastly, any regulating materials (in this case, foot corks and your little plastic tube/bumper there)

And you could break the key down into its component parts:

the arm
the key touch
the pad cup
the tube or hinge tube

In most cases these parts are made from separate bits of brass and manufactured by various processes according to their form, then brazed together to make the complete key.

Other than the picture above not much exist outside the variations. This exact subject of trying to identify the parts of a saxophone does not exist on the forum threads. Identifying the parts of a palm Key? Pfff good luck finding that. All that good knowledge comes from digging through these threads. Time to start one on the nomenclature and parts of a saxophone.
https://www.google.com/search?q=sax...IHZ79D3MQ9QEwEHoECAkQOA&biw=404&bih=285&dpr=2

 

[Bloo Dog]

Wait. Is that black plastic tube silicone or is it hard plastic, or is it vinyl? It may be a bushing intended to make a third party (i.e., cannibalized) key from another manufacturer's saxophone fit. Can you post a photo of the assembly?

You mentioned wire. Is that wire passed through the hinge tube to keep the key in place?