[zonepeter]

Just wanted to mention this series of videos by Randy Hunter that may be of interest to some here.
Full disclosure: I am a Skype student of Randy's and my constant haranguing of Randy about this topic may have had some to do with its creation With that said, I have no interest of any sort in it, nor did Randy ask me to post this or encourage me in any way to do it. The thoughts here are my own.

This is a 4 part video series, primarily on the topic of doo dun tonguing or whatever you prefer to call it. It is over an hour of video material with corresponding PDFs.

Video 1 is a very detailed description of the basic technique of doo dun tonguing. It is presented in greater depth then I've seen elsewhere.
Video 2 is exercises, starting on a single note and progressing through scales, with appropriate articulation. Good to get you going.
Video 3 is about using these tonguings with alternate fingers, including set of fingerings for many notes. This one is useful for funk and rock and roll as well as jazz.
Video 4 is a series of licks from masters (Stitt, Dexter, Mobley and Cannonball, I think). Randy goes over how they were originally phrased and then gives several alternative possibilities for each lick.

The series is well organized, thoroughly presented and well documented. It does assume a basic knowledge of articulation technique. I certainly haven't seen everything out there on this subject, but it is the most comprehensive, well organized material on this subject that I have been able to find, and I certainly have spend a lot of time looking.

It looks like the videos are available individually or as a package at Randy's web site and I know they are available on his subscription site.

 

[10mfan]

Randy is a phenomenal educator and an incredible asset to the saxophone community.
He is also a truly kind and compassionate person.

I always enjoy his videos and I’m glad you came on to say something.

I can’t wait to check out this series.

 

[saxoclese]

I checked RandyHunterjazz.com and couldn't find the jazz articulation series. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place.

 

[lesacks]

I checked RandyHunterjazz.com and couldn't find the jazz articulation series. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place.

Randy has two sites. The other one...

https://beginningsax.com/product/advanced-jazz-articulation/

Oh, and a 2nd recommend for Randy's stuff. It's excellent.

 

[saxoclese]

Randy has two sites. The other one...

https://beginningsax.com/product/advanced-jazz-articulation/

Oh, and a 2nd recommend for Randy's stuff. It's excellent.

Thank you. I'm anxious to check it out.

 

[Nefertiti]

Video 1 is a very detailed description of the basic technique of doo dun tonguing. It is presented in greater depth then I've seen elsewhere.

I have to say that up to this point, everything I have seen online about teaching the doo dun tonguing technique has been sadly disappointing. I don't use this tonguing at all but have been curious about it and I could not make sense of anything I have watched. Kudos to Randy if this video makes the technique understandable and teachable!

 

[saxoclese]

I have to say that up to this point, everything I have seen online about teaching the doo dun tonguing technique has been sadly disappointing. I don't use this tonguing at all but have been curious about it and I could not make sense of anything I have watched. Kudos to Randy if this video makes the technique understandable and teachable!

Dr. Ray Smith of BYU director of the award winning jazz ensemble Synthesis has done a series of jazz education videos that correspond with the principles in his "The Real Jazz Pedagogy Book". He gives a clear description and examples of "ghosting" notes that some call "doo dun" tonguing beginning at 14:00 in the video below. What he doesn't tell you in the video that I learned from a student of his is that the "nnn" is produced by the tongue touching the reed lightly usually on one side of the tip or the other to slightly "muffle" the vibration of the reed. It would be interesting to see what approach Randy Hunter uses to teach these concepts as well.

 

[10mfan]

Rays faces are too hard to watch!

 

[saxoclese]

Rays faces are too hard to watch!

I know what you mean. Just close your eyes and listen. I have seen Ray perform live on several different woodwinds over many years. Whether he is playing a single note, a measure, a phrase, or an entire chorus he plays everything with the same level of intensity. Regardless of his facial expressions when he plays, he is considered to be one of the top jazz educators in the U.S. His bands and students who have gone on to play professionally are a measure of his teaching ability.

 

[zonepeter]

Randy actually teaches touching the front lip with the tongue, although I don't use that technique. I use my tongue to muffle the reed directly.

 

[Nefertiti]

Dr. Ray Smith of BYU director of the award winning jazz ensemble Synthesis has done a series of jazz education videos that correspond with the principles in his "The Real Jazz Pedagogy Book". He gives a clear description and examples of "ghosting" notes that some call "doo dun" tonguing beginning at 14:00 in the video below. What he doesn't tell you in the video that I learned from a student of his is that the "nnn" is produced by the tongue touching the reed lightly usually on one side of the tip or the other to slightly "muffle" the vibration of the reed. It would be interesting to see what approach Randy Hunter uses to teach these concepts as well.

Man, I can hear what they are doing but I am just not convinced that this technique was used to the extent some of these guys are using it. I would hear a ghost note here and there in the old recordings but this new "doo dun" tonguing technique guys are teaching seems like it is making it an every moment part of jazz articulation. We work so hard on our tone it seems like a strange thing to then ghost tongue and diminish the tone on 50% of the notes in our lines.........

 

[JL]

I have to say that up to this point, everything I have seen online about teaching the doo dun tonguing technique has been sadly disappointing. I don't use this tonguing at all but have been curious about it and I could not make sense of anything I have watched. Kudos to Randy if this video makes the technique understandable and teachable!

Man, I can hear what they are doing but I am just not convinced that this technique was used to the extent some of these guys are using it. I would hear a ghost note here and there in the old recordings but this new "doo dun" tonguing technique guys are teaching seems like it is making it an every moment part of jazz articulation. We work so hard on our tone it seems like a strange thing to then ghost tongue and diminish the tone on 50% of the notes in our lines.........

Steve, I'm glad to hear you mention this because I had the same impression as you after watching a couple of "doo dun" tonguing explanations on YouTube (including Ray's clip); I can ghost a note or two, but trying to do it on a whole series of notes, I found it really awkward. I just figured I either needed to work on it some more or that I just wasn't doing it right. Like you say, I can hear it, and I even think I can get something close by emphasizing or accenting the higher notes. But all the ghosting stuff seems to elude me.

Having said all that, I'll definitely check out Randy's video. Randy is a great player and teacher and I always get a lot out of Randy's YouTube vids so maybe he can explain this in a way that I can make it work.

 

[Randy Hunter]

Thanks for the mention and review, Peter! And thanks for helping me work out the process in your lessons!

To be fair, this is not an articulation you would use constantly, any more than you would growl constantly. However, the technique can be used on repeated notes, to set up a more pronounced articulation on certain notes, and to de-emphasize tones in passages. Examples can be found in repeated note phrases (enhanced with alternate fingerings) by Sonny Stitt and just about any line from Dexter where he de-emphasizes (muffles) several consecutive notes before popping out and accented/articulated tone. Red Prysock does a tune called Hand Clapping where you hear tons of repeated notes made effective through a form of this articulation.

Randy
https://beginningsax.com

 

[Lambros]

Thanks for the mention and review, Peter! And thanks for helping me work out the process in your lessons!

To be fair, this is not an articulation you would use constantly, any more than you would growl constantly. However, the technique can be used on repeated notes, to set up a more pronounced articulation on certain notes, and to de-emphasize tones in passages. Examples can be found in repeated note phrases (enhanced with alternate fingerings) by Sonny Stitt and just about any line from Dexter where he de-emphasizes (muffles) several consecutive notes before popping out and accented/articulated tone. Red Prysock does a tune called Hand Clapping where you hear tons of repeated notes made effective through a form of this articulation.

Randy

https://beginningsax.com

Randy, I enjoy listening to and learning from interesting and insightful lessons that your videos represent. Thanks for this and I have a specific question about air articulation and where you would use or found clear examples of it in jazz playing. It's to my experience mostly a clarinet technique but I clearly hear it quite a bit in the playing of the great swing era tenor players. Thanks for any response in advance.

 

[Dr G]

Dr. Ray Smith of BYU director of the award winning jazz ensemble Synthesis has done a series of jazz education videos...

What is that Stuff on the neck of his horn?

 

[Randy Hunter]

Randy, I enjoy listening to and learning from interesting and insightful lessons that your videos represent. Thanks for this and I have a specific question about air articulation and where you would use or found clear examples of it in jazz playing. It's to my experience mostly a clarinet technique but I clearly hear it quite a bit in the playing of the great swing era tenor players. Thanks for any response in advance.

If I'm interpreting your question correctly, I can think of a couple of ways I might use the breath as a form of articulation. First is what is often referred to as the "foo-foo" type of articulation sometimes associated with swing era players like Ben Webster. That would be effective on a ballad, particularly in the low register. There's also the breath accent (pulse) that might be used on quarter note triplets instead of a tongue- of course, it can be used in many situations, this is just what comes to mind. I'm not sure if this really addresses what you're asking, but maybe it gives you some ideas.

 

[Lambros]

If I'm interpreting your question correctly, I can think of a couple of ways I might use the breath as a form of articulation. First is what is often referred to as the "foo-foo" type of articulation sometimes associated with swing era players like Ben Webster. That would be effective on a ballad, particularly in the low register. There's also the breath accent (pulse) that might be used on quarter note triplets instead of a tongue- of course, it can be used in many situations, this is just what comes to mind. I'm not sure if this really addresses what you're asking, but maybe it gives you some ideas.

Most definitely; you described 2 concepts of what I was asking very well, thanks. And past the swing style of playing ballads, I'm almost certain that Parker used it sparingly but effectively in tunes like Laura and Just Friends. Clearly it's harder to do on alto and it's a matter of proper embouchure support, breath control, etc.

 

[saxoclese]

What is that Stuff on the neck of his horn?

I'm embarrassed to say that it is a LefreQue. In spite of how well Ray Smith plays and teaches, he seems to be a real "sucker" for all of the gimmicks that come along. Its hard to see in the video, but he usually has two "ergonomic heavy mass neck screws" in both the neck receiver and the lyre holder as well. His other "superstitions" include the belief that the "face cards" in a deck represent "evil". What more can I say.

 

[JL]

I'm embarrassed to say that it is a LefreQue. In spite of how well Ray Smith plays and teaches, he seems to be a real "sucker" for all of the gimmicks that come along. Its hard to see in the video, but he usually has two "ergonomic heavy mass neck screws" in both the neck receiver and the lyre holder as well. His other "superstitions" include the belief that the "face cards" in a deck represent "evil". What more can I say.

He can certainly be a great player (and he is!) and still believe in magical devices or be subject to the placebo effect. From what I've heard (yeah, 'hearsay', fwiw), some of the greatest baseball players of all time had all sorts of superstitions; things like wearing a certain pair of socks, or carrying a lucky charm, or for pitchers, sitting in some special place on the day they would be pitching and not allowing anyone to talk to them. Probably none of that hurt their performance, even if it didn't help it either.

Anyway, back on topic, I think articulation is a very important aspect of playing the sax. What Randy said in post #13 above makes a lot of sense. I want to check out his video and see how he approaches this type of articulation.

p.s. I do like what Ray said about accenting ALL the upbeats being heresy. Way back when I first tried doing that I never thought it sounded right. Accenting certain upbeats sounds great, but not all of them. I also like how he points out that ghosted notes are simply softer, but still sounded. Lots of good stuff in that video, actually.

 

[zonepeter]

Although I had been asking Randy about this topic for years, our deep dive began with the Chad LB video on articulation in which he advocates that most ascending lines should be played by using this type of tonguing. Looking at and slowing the playing of a variety of masters, I would say we found a great variety of styles and techniques, and concluded that in fact articulation and use of a variety of techniques and sounds very much distinguished different players sounds. Use of these techniques and choosing when to articulate is a huge part of phrasing and seems to create a sense of forward motion (I can't explain it any better then that). We looked at players from many eras and found the use of the techniques pretty consistent. I would say that almost all the playing we looked at was pretty much straight ahead.
JL: If you wanted to check out some of this without getting the whole series, you might check out video 4, which goes over the use by different players.