[DeUtCheaxelplaya]

does it matter if my Bb up to C overtones are sharp? the purpose of overtones is to match your normal tone to the overtone.........so does it matter if the intonation is off? my low Bb is always at least 15 cents sharp and my middle Bb is always either in tune or if not it is flat. so im just wondering if that matters.

Oh and do sub tones have the same concept as overtones........i was told that overtones are showing you the true tone of your instrument and that those sub tones might be showing the same thing.

So if someone could get back to me on these things i would really appreciate it.

~Thomas

 

[captorquewrench]

the overtones are not always going to match pitch. The high A produced on a D fingering for example doesn't match well pitch-wise. My understanding and approach is that you are matching purity of sound/tone, and keeping the airstream consistent enough so that you do not crack pitch, when moving from overtone to fingered pitch and back

 

[Martinman]

Maybe one of Trent Kynaston's students can chime in here, but I believe he says something about the intonation of overtones needing (or should be) in tune, but I can't remember what it is, sorry.

A sub-tone is basically a...subdued tone. You might want to try a search for this, and I think there is even a featured article about it.

 

[magical pig]

I think the notes from the overtone series are physically not in tune but also you should try to bend them in tune when you do the overtone exercise...

From wikipedia :

Harmonic Note Variance
1st C1 0 cents
2nd C2 0 cents
3rd G2 +2 cents
4th C3 0 cents
5th E3 −14 cents
6th G3 +2 cents
7th Bb3 −31 cents

Harmonic Note Variance
8th C4 0 cents
9th D4 +4 cents
10th E4 −14 cents
11th G♭4 −49 cents
12th G4 +2 cents
13th Ab4 +41 cents
14th Bb4 −31 cents

Harmonic Note Variance
15th B4 −12 cents
16th C5 0 cents
17th C#5 +5 cents
18th D5 +4 cents
19th D#5 −2 cents
20th E5 −14 cents

Victor.

 

[DeUtCheaxelplaya]

thanks guys, but I really need a solid answer on this one.
and i have a fingering chart for sub tones (the first sub tone i did i found on my own.........didnt even know it was a sub tone) and it sounded really good so i was guessing you can apply the concept of overtones to this. only problem is the fingering of the sub tone is different from the natural fingering and there is no ombeture or throat thing involved in it so it might be harder to match tones. idk.

MORE INFO NEEDED

~Thomas

 

[Pete Thomas]

My understanding is that the notes will not be in tune with equal temperament tuners which are based on an artificial system that divides the octave into 12 equal semitones. This has no basis in acoustics.

For this reason the octaves should be in tune acordoing to your tuner, but the other notes will not be in tune with a tuner or keyboard. This fits in with magical pig's quote from Wikipedia above.

However I am happy to be corrected on this if I'm oversimplyfying or talking rubbish.

 

[DeUtCheaxelplaya]

My understanding is that the notes will not be in tune with equal temperament tuners which are based on an artificial system that divides the octave into 12 equal semitones. This has no basis in acoustics.

For this reason the octaves should be in tune acordoing to your tuner, but the other notes will not be in tune with a tuner or keyboard. This fits in with magical pig's quote from Wikipedia above.

However I am happy to be corrected on this if I'm oversimplyfying or talking rubbish.

ahh so basically my overtone needs to be "in tune" and then my natural tone should most likely not be. Is that it?
andi got the sub tone fingerings from your site i believe...........i cant remember (do you have that on there?).........yeah so what do you think about those? are sub tones something that is conventional for improving my tone?

i would say my tone does need much work thats why.....

 

[Pete Thomas]

"In tune" depends on what you want to be in tune with.

If you are playing with a band that has a keyboard, then you need to be in tune with that, which is "equal temperament") Octave divided into 12 equal semitones) which is what is used for electronic tuners and keyboards.

Very often ensembles without keyboards or instruments (e.g. singers, strings) use just intonation, which is (I think) more based on the intonation of the overtones (someone please correct me or point to an authority if I'm wrong). Usually such ensembles just drift into this tuning without consciously doing it as its more natural and musical than equal temperament.

Equal temperament was invented because without it you can't have an instrument with fixed pitch notes that can play in any key. (e.g. G# is different to Ab).

The "basically" is that you need to be able to play in tnue with a pinao or tuner (equal temperament) but don't worry too much if your overtones (apart from the octaves) are not in tune with the tuner.

BTW, there are no separate subtone fingerings, subtone is more of an embouchure/breath thing. Maybe you are thinking of my altissimo fingering chart.

 

[jbtsax]

does it matter if my Bb up to C overtones are sharp? the purpose of overtones is to match your normal tone to the overtone.........so does it matter if the intonation is off? my low Bb is always at least 15 cents sharp and my middle Bb is always either in tune or if not it is flat. so im just wondering if that matters.

Oh and do sub tones have the same concept as overtones........i was told that overtones are showing you the true tone of your instrument and that those sub tones might be showing the same thing.

So if someone could get back to me on these things i would really appreciate it.
~Thomas

I'm a bit confused by your question. It is called a subtone when one plays notes in the low register with a looser embouchure and the jaw pulled back to make the notes soft and "breathy" sounding.

It is called an overtone or harmonic when one fingers a low note on the saxophone and by altering the shape of the throat and the speed and direction of the airstream forces the note to sound an octave higher, an octave and a fifth, two octaves, and octave and a tenth etc., etc. with the same fingering.

When one plays these overtones or harmonics on notes above high F (3rd leger line above the staff) using special altered fingerings, they are called altissimo notes.

You said "when you match your normal tone to the overtone---does it matter when the intonation is off". By this I take it that you mean like when you finger low B natural and make it sound its first overtone 3rd line B using the same fingering that it has the same pitch as B natural fingered with the first finger.

On well made saxophones with the correct mouthpiece placement and the proper input pitch of the mouthpiece the pitches should be very close if not exact. If the regular fingering of the upper note is slightly sharp or flat small adjustments can be made by moving the mouthpiece on or off the cork slightly. Remember moving the mouthpiece on the cork and effectively changing the length of the saxophone has a greater effect on notes produced by a shorter tube than a longer tube because you are affecting a greater percentage of their wavelengths.

One of the intonation tests I like to perform on saxophones I am trying out is to play multiphonics (holding the note to sound both octaves simultaneously) fingering low Bb, B, and C and listening for "beats" created when the octaves are slightly out of tune. l hope my rambling helps your understanding a bit. If you have any more questions, please post them or send me a PM.

John

 

[DeUtCheaxelplaya]

BTW, there are no separate subtone fingerings, subtone is more of an embouchure/breath thing. Maybe you are thinking of my altissimo fingering chart.

Oh im sorry i was thinking of something totally different............it wasnt sub tones it was quarter tones. can those have the same concept as overtones?

most of them sound pretty good although they're out of tune (but they're supposed to be i think........quarter tone flat, quarter tone sharp)
like the quarter tone i figured out on my own for A. finger A on your left hand and D on your right hand without the first finger pressed down.

 

[hakukani]

In general, and this may also be an oversimplification, even numbered overtones (with the fundamental being 1) are usually related to the fundamental by a 'perfect' interval (octave, fifth, or fourth). These will be more 'in tune' than the odd intervals. If you play a low B, and voice it up an octave, it should be in tune with the regularly fingered B.

I got interested in different systems of intonation while studying harmonic singing. Since harmonic singing can't 'tune' itself, adherents generally use a form of 'just' intonation.

Tuneing In, microtonality in Electronic Music by Scott Wilkerson has a very accessible explanation of tuning systems, including those espoused by Ling Lun (the first musical theorist), Pythagorus, Ptolemy, Ho Tcheng-Tien (who developed the first equal tempered tuning), well tempered (Werckmeister), just, mean-tone, Quarter tones, ethnic tunings, and an intonation system invented by Wendy Carlos.

[It's interesting to note that Indian ragas are based on 22 pure intervals (sruti). They are NOT quarter tone (24 tone equal temperment).]

So, you see, the subject of tuning is actually quite deep, and goes a LOT furthur than tuning to a Korg tuner.

 

[Martinman]

So, you see, the subject of tuning is actually quite deep, and goes a LOT furthur than tuning to a Korg tuner.

I was just doing some reading about tuning for an assignment from my instructor the other day, and I discoverd all these huge Wiki articles. I had no idea it was so complex.