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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
While copying a tenor mouthpiece for a peer I inadvertently used a defective riggotti (her preferred reed) that was not as wide as most. After racking my brain as to why the piece wouldn't respond quickly enough with the reed I was using I tried one last time only with the actual reed I used as a template for tip/rail shaping. Then as an experiment I shaved my personal reed on the sides to better fit the rails. The initial effect was very noticeable for both reeds.

How much does overlapping lay effect response? I've gotten the baffle height, length and profile pretty darn close to identical to the original piece while maintaining a .106" tip opening. Is it worth taking down the table and re-applying the facing curve just to widen the lay?

View attachment 85322 View attachment 85324 View attachment 85323

The first photo is of a Java red to show overlap.
 

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The reed is wider than the table on many mouthpieces including the greater part of the facing but typically comes into more exact matching as the tip flares. The tip flares because the sides of the mouthpiece are slanted/rounded, so as the facing curve goes up the sides it has to flare wider. Consequently, reeds are cut wider at the tip and more narrow at the butt, but in straight lines, so there is usually 'overhang'. I also have had mouthpieces that were wider than the reed at the tip because of extreme tip openings, to the point that the reed really almost did not cover the opening. It made no difference - the mouthpieces played great. In fact, my current soprano piece is that way. If I'm not careful to not mount the reed crooked, one side or the other would be off the side rail near the tip.
It appears to me that there is no need to match the reed to the facing/table although I admit I have never done it.
 

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If you think about it, too much overhang creates an area where your mouth and lips have additional contact with the reed in areas it should not. It would be logical that this would slow and dampen vibration. I doubt a tiny bit makes a difference but if excessive I could see it creating significant problems.
 

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I do not think a little reed overhang will effect response significantly. By shaving down the sides of your reeds to match, you soften them some. This will effect response. So it is not a good test.
 

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haha I was just thinking that this morning Mojo...my brain had not gotten to the notion of softening the reed but definitely changing its characteristics..
I just got on a computer vs my phone and can see the photo.

That is not a lot of overhang.

It would be interesting to see if a lot makes a difference in a real experiment but Ive got better things to do with my time lol
 

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The larger question to me would be; does the overlap bother the player? Pieces with this kind of reed overlap are very uncomfortable for me to play. I never get past the lip pinching to the point of being concerned about response. I've resold a couple of pieces (most recently a PMS Guardala MBI) because of this. Likewise, while there may be some value in postulating the effect of shaving the reeds down, in a practical sense, nobody wants to have to do this on a constant basis.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
If you think about it, too much overhang creates an area where your mouth and lips have additional contact with the reed in areas it should not. It would be logical that this would slow and dampen vibration. I doubt a tiny bit makes a difference but if excessive I could see it creating significant problems.
This is my concern with the overhang. Thanks for the response.

I do not think a little reed overhang will effect response significantly. By shaving down the sides of your reeds to match, you soften them some. This will effect response. So it is not a good test.
Thanks Keith. I didn't consider reed strength when I shaved the reed although it was a trivial amount. I'll try a softer reed.

The larger question to me would be; does the overlap bother the player? Pieces with this kind of reed overlap are very uncomfortable for me to play. I never get past the lip pinching to the point of being concerned about response. I've resold a couple of pieces (most recently a PMS Guardala MBI) because of this. Likewise, while there may be some value in postulating the effect of shaving the reeds down, in a practical sense, nobody wants to have to do this on a constant basis.
I tend to have more sensitivities with the contact my lip makes than most as I have larger lips. It is possible that this won't bother the owner of the piece, but I wanted to check with you guys and see what opinions you all have. It seems that physiological make-up can determine how much this will or won't be an issue. That's interesting about the PMS MB1. Was there a noticeable pinching of your lip?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I do not think a little reed overhang will effect response significantly. By shaving down the sides of your reeds to match, you soften them some. This will effect response. So it is not a good test.

Also, I'm assuming the defective (narrower) reed was tested for strength at the factory after being finished. At least this is how I understand the process goes. That being said the defective reed was in fact the strength it was labeled as.
 

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I tend to have more sensitivities with the contact my lip makes than most as I have larger lips. It is possible that this won't bother the owner of the piece, but I wanted to check with you guys and see what opinions you all have. It seems that physiological make-up can determine how much this will or won't be an issue. That's interesting about the PMS MB1. Was there a noticeable pinching of your lip?
Yes there was an actual pinch where the reed and mouthpiece come together. I suspect, as many things, this is player dependent. If you take enough mouthpiece that your lips are completely past the break you might never feel this while others are sensitive enough that any piece with a relatively narrow lay make cause issue. I have never had a problem with a mouthpiece that didn't have the kind of reed overhang you show in the first picture. It's very rare to see a hard rubber piece with this as typically most HR blanks are much wider than the reeds. All of the pieces I've had that have been a problem for me have been metal tenor pieces.
 

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If you think about it, too much overhang creates an area where your mouth and lips have additional contact with the reed in areas it should not. It would be logical that this would slow and dampen vibration. I doubt a tiny bit makes a difference but if excessive I could see it creating significant problems.
I don't worry about the dampened vibrations. Too busy wiping the blood from my lip from the edges of the reed slicing it on that kind of mouthpiece. This is why I had to give up my Guardala habit...
 

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Decades ago, I cut my bottom lip playing a Bari brand reed on a vintage Level Air tenor mouthpiece. It was a loud outdoor gig and I was blowing my brains outs. There was significant reed overhang. Much more than shown in the photo above. It took a worse case scenario (for me) to draw blood. This set up was so loud reed damping never crossed my mind.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Decades ago, I cut my bottom lip playing a Bari brand reed on a vintage Level Air tenor mouthpiece. It was a loud outdoor gig and I was blowing my brains outs. There was significant reed overhang. Much more than shown in the photo above. It took a worse case scenario (for me) to draw blood. This set up was so loud reed damping never crossed my mind.
I played on a fibracell and level aire combo for alto in high marching band. It was the loudest setup I've ever played. I had a dueling solo with a mellophone at one time and could actually hang, but I use to bleed all over the place. I just assumed it was the reed surface, but I wonder now about overhang.

I was able to widen the window with minimal tip and baffle reshape. It seems to have made a difference, but then again who knows...
 

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While copying a tenor mouthpiece for a peer I inadvertently used a defective riggotti (her preferred reed) that was not as wide as most.
can you explain what you mean, how you copied the mouthpiece and what a reed had to do with it.

Copying mouthpieces is generally done by making a mould (which doesn't involve a reed) or using CNC (which doesn't involve a reed) so what is the process of copying a mouthpiece that involves a reed?
 

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I don't worry about the dampened vibrations. Too busy wiping the blood from my lip from the edges of the reed slicing it on that kind of mouthpiece. This is why I had to give up my Guardala habit...
Decades ago, I cut my bottom lip playing a Bari brand reed on a vintage Level Air tenor mouthpiece. It was a loud outdoor gig and I was blowing my brains outs. There was significant reed overhang. Much more than shown in the photo above. It took a worse case scenario (for me) to draw blood. This set up was so loud reed damping never crossed my mind.
I played on a fibracell and level aire combo for alto in high marching band. It was the loudest setup I've ever played. I had a dueling solo with a mellophone at one time and could actually hang, but I use to bleed all over the place. I just assumed it was the reed surface, but I wonder now about overhang.

I was able to widen the window with minimal tip and baffle reshape. It seems to have made a difference, but then again who knows...
I never let it get that far. You guys are like masochist. I play for enjoyment with no need to fight my way through with some mouthpiece from the Marquis de Sade collection.
 

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I never let it get that far. You guys are like masochist. I play for enjoyment with no need to fight my way through with some mouthpiece from the Marquis de Sade collection.
Thank you! Now I have a new nickname for the guitarists... :twisted:

At any rate, I've found that Jumbo Javas do a decent job of keeping them in check without shredding my lip...
 

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All I know about facing width with reed overhang on the sides is the greatest and most sought-after mouthpieces always have it. I think over the many years I actually got pinched once or twice but normally its a non-issue. I do not know why great mouthpieces are like this but this is one of those questions answered by - 'Why ask why?'
 
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