[zorroperro]

Generally speaking, do you find to have to push the mouthpiece pretty much into the cork with your Series III's than other horns? I have to when I play them for having the best tuning, which as everybody knows, it is very good in this horns. Pretty much up to the end of the cork.

 

[LostConn]

As to the Series III alto, the answer is yes. (I go into some detail on this subject in my Series III vs. Series II comparison thread.) I have observed other Series III alto players on YouTube (mostly classical), and they also push their mouthpieces far in.

As to the Series III soprano, the answer also appears to be yes. I don't play this horn, but my friend does, and he's always pushing his mouthpiece in to the absolute limit.

I can't speak to the Series III tenor.

 

[saxyjare01]

If you look at a Mark VI neck and compare it with a Series III, you'll notice that they just shortened the cork and the mouthpiece placement is about the same.

 

[Dr G]

If you look at a Mark VI neck and compare it with a Series III, you'll notice that they just shortened the cork and the mouthpiece placement is about the same.

Thanks for sharing that observation. Good stuff.

Yepper. The length of the cork is arbitrary, thus the amount of cork showing is equally arbitrary.

 

[zorroperro]

Ok, but comparing where the mouthpiece goes with my Reference experience and Series II experience, the Series III seems to require a lot of more mouthpiece into the cork. Have not measured them, though.

If you look at a Mark VI neck and compare it with a Series III, you'll notice that they just shortened the cork and the mouthpiece placement is about the same.

 

[Platner]

This is how far my DG mouthpiece has to be down the cork to play in tune with my Series III soprano. The same mouthpiece on my MK VI soprano leaves about 3/8" of cork exposed.

 

[Dr G]

View attachment 263146

This is how far my DG mouthpiece has to be down the cork to play in tune with my Series III soprano. The same mouthpiece on my MK VI soprano leaves about 3/8" of cork exposed.

That looks fine to me. The shank is still well clear of the octave key.

Whether it plays in tune is what matters.

 

[zorroperro]

Maybe I should have been more specific, among the Selmer horns, is in the Series III where mouthpiece goes further into the cork? Maybe has to do with the neck design. Frankly, I do not know.

 

[LostConn]

Maybe I should have been more specific, among the Selmer horns, is in the Series III where mouthpiece goes further into the cork? Maybe has to do with the neck design. Frankly, I do not know.

As I've described before, the Series III alto neck is slightly longer than the Series II alto neck. If you have one of each, you can compare them.

 

[zorroperro]

Yes, but I do not know if the Series III neck length has to do with a different design of the rest of the horn. Maybe it is longer because the rest of the Series III design needs a longer neck. I do not mean the rest of the horn is shorter, because I do not know. But maybe the diameter, bore, etc. needs a longer neck? And if so, a shorter Series III neck would work.

What I know is that to play in tune I have to push the mouthpiece way into the Series III neck cork, and if it is with a Series II body, quite a lot too.

As I've described before, the Series III alto neck is slightly longer than the Series II alto neck. If you have one of each, you can compare them.

 

[LostConn]

Yes, but I do not know if the Series III neck length has to do with a different design of the rest of the horn.

I don't know that either. The Series III alto neck is longer, but I don't know why. You may need to ask Selmer Paris directly, or a Selmer expert who is intimately familiar with the acoustic design of the Series III. When I did my comparison, I looked carefully at the Series II and III necks, but I made no attempt to measure the dimensions of the bodies. That was beyond my capabilities.

I will say that I don't think it's a coincidence that the Series III alto and the Series III soprano both require a mouthpiece to be pushed unusually far down in order for the horn to achieve its desired tuning. But again, I can't define what the common design principle may be.

 

[turf3]

Measure from the tip of the mouthpiece to a registration point on the neck (the octave pip is a good one). That is the measurement that matters. All else is purely a function of how long the mouthpiece manufacturer decided to make the shank, how long the last repair person decided to make the cork, and how long the saxophone manufacturer decided to make the neck tube. (Actually, how long the neck tube is, does have some acoustical effect because that extra neck length sticks into the volume of the mouthpiece and reduces it; the other two things have no acoustical effect whatsoever.)

 

[turf3]

As to sopranos, I think they pretty much all require the MP to be further on the horn (proportionally) than for an alto or tenor. Don't know why.

 

[Dr G]

As to sopranos, I think they pretty much all require the MP to be further on the horn (proportionally) than for an alto or tenor. Don't know why.

Could it be something as simple as minimum length of engagement to ensure physical stability?

Even this could differ between design teams of different marques.

I don't recall which combination it was, but I do remember having one mouthpiece that hit the octave key before it was on far enough. I also remember a mouthpiece with its shank cut back - obviously someone else had experienced a similar encounter of mouthpiece too long for a particular sop.

Too many sops, too many mouthpieces... I am fortunate to have a combination that makes me happy enough that I don't think about this stuff anymore.

 

[turf3]

On my old Buescher soprano I had to cut off both my Selmer and Rousseau pieces because they run into the octave key post. I also had to ream the bore of a Woodwind Co. piece deeper because the end of the neck ran into the internal step from the bore into the chamber.

Interestingly, my "Holton" (actually Couturier) has the post set back and the pad arm is curved, so it's not necessary on that horn.

 

[LostConn]

As to sopranos, I think they pretty much all require the MP to be further on the horn (proportionally) than for an alto or tenor. Don't know why.

I think that's true; Dave Kessler's blog has an entry addressing this subject. However, even in the soprano world, the Series III really seems to require swallowing up the cork.

 

[zorroperro]

So..... Ceteris paribus... as all you know means having everything else equal, same mouthpiece, Series III might require more mouthpiece into the neck cork than Series II or Reference Selmers? Do we generally agree?

 

[turf3]

So..... Ceteris paribus... as all you know means having everything else equal, same mouthpiece, Series III might require more mouthpiece into the neck cork than Series II or Reference Selmers? Do we generally agree?

Only way to answer that is for someone with both, to put the same MP on and measure, not the length of exposed cork, but the distance from the mouthpiece tip to the octave pip.

 

[LostConn]

Only way to answer that is for someone with both, to put the same MP on and measure, not the length of exposed cork, but the distance from the mouthpiece tip to the octave pip.

I think that's the second question. The first question is how much neck length goes into the mouthpiece. You can determine that by marking the neck where the mouthpiece ends when fully inserted, then measuring from that spot to the tip of the ferrule at the end of the neck. This will answer the fundamental question, "Do you have to push the mouthpiece further onto the neck when playing this horn?"

I think that your question relates more to whether the extra length of a neck, if any, is acoustically significant. If a longer neck just means that more neck goes inside the mouthpiece, but the mouthpiece ends up the same distance away from the first vent on the horn, then maybe the extra neck length does not affect the sound or response of the instrument (unless it alters the mp's chamber size).

 

[Dr G]

I think that's the second question. The first question is how much neck length goes into the mouthpiece. You can determine that by marking the neck where the mouthpiece ends when fully inserted, then measuring from that spot to the tip of the ferrule at the end of the neck. This will answer the fundamental question, "Do you have to push the mouthpiece further onto the neck when playing this horn?"

I think that your question relates more to whether the extra length of a neck, if any, is acoustically significant. If a longer neck just means that more neck goes inside the mouthpiece, but the mouthpiece ends up the same distance away from the first vent on the horn, then maybe the extra neck length does not affect the sound or response of the instrument (unless it alters the mp's chamber size).

Which leads to a third question: What is the length of the horn - is the overall length greater on the III due to the neck?