[Ferlas Soram]

Hey, I've got a question. So I'm finally learning to get away from the blues scale in my solos. Something came up though. I was looking at jamey aebersold's book ii - V7 - 1 and I came across this, it might seem stupid but here goes.

When you are playing a minor 7th chord, say in B, what are the notes? Do you simply take the same notes from the D scale and play them starting on B? Because in my aebersold book, it includes a G#, which is actually part of the original scale.

I guess the main quesiton I'm asking is this. When playing a minor 7th chord, what are the notes?

I, II, bIII, IV, V, (VI or bVI?) bVII, VIII

My aebersold book wrote in a g sharp, but if I were to play the note as if it were in D minor then it would have a g natural. Help?

Thanks.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Aebersold can be very confusing.

Minor 7 chords contain the root, minor 3rd, 5th and minor 7th.

In the key of B there are three minor 7 chords (nothing to do witha D scale).

They are:

C#m7 = C# E G# B

D#m7 = D# F# A# C#

and

G#m7 = G# B D# F#

I guess the main quesiton I'm asking is this. When playing a minor 7th chord, what are the notes?

I, II, bIII, IV, V, (VI or bVI?) bVII, VIII

That is a scale, not a chord. This is one of the confusing things about Aebersold.

See here:

http://tamingthesaxophone.com/jazz-theory-beginners.html

 

[hakukani]

Roman numerals are for chord functions in a key, not for individual notes. A minor 7 chord is a chord with these intervals from the root:

m3, P5, m7.

in other words, a dm7 has dfac Aebersold's theory is that a dorian mode (d e f g a b c d) fits 'best' over that chord.

If you are in b minor (2 sharps), the i chord would be a bm7, which has b d f# a. The dorian scale that 'fits' with that, according to Aebsersold, would be b d e F# g# a b. The dorian scale is similar to a natural minor scale with the sixth (G) raised.

Similarly, if you are playing the ii7 in the key of A major, the dorian scale has 3 sharps, just like the major key that it's performing the 'ii' function.

 

[Ferlas Soram]

This is what I meant to say. The relative minor for the key of D is B. But in aebersold it has a g sharp which isn't even in the key of d. I was told to find a minor for a key, go down 3 half steps to find it, and play in the same key that you started in. Is this wrong?

The question was more geared towards a b minor scale, not necessarily a b minor chord. Sorry I'm not the best with this notation lol

also i think i see what you're saying. the minor 2nd that i'm playing is in the key of a. so since it started in a it would automatically have that g sharp?

 

[Bubba06]

They are different minors. He is not referring to the relative minor of the key. He is referring to completely different minor, "Dorian". It has a 1 b3 5 b7. So, if you want to use a scale, it's a 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8.

I wish this was more clear, when Jamey first started these things.

-Bubba-

 

[Ferlas Soram]

Bubba, that makes sense. How do I know when music is referring to the dorian minor vs. the other minor? (what is the other one called)
Is there a special symbolism, or is it something I should pick up from seeing the other chords around it?

 

[hakukani]

The scale that Jamey is referring to not a minor, but a dorian scale. Dorian scale is 'naturally' built on the second degree of a major scale. The natural minor scale is 'naturally' built on sixth degree. For example, in the key of C major, the relative minor (which is coincidentally the sixth degree A--or 'three down'). The dorian scale that Jamey is using is built on the second degree of the scale, D. C major, D dorian, and A natural minor (aka 'Aeolian') have identical keys signatures--that is, no sharps or flats.

There are other greek modes. If you play with no sharps or flats, starting on the different scale degrees, you will find these modes:

C major (aka Ionian mode)
D Dorian mode
E Phrygian mode
F Lydian mode
G Mixolydian mode
A natural minor (aka Aeolian mode)
B Locrian mode

 

[skeller047]

It really depends on the context. There is no such thing as a scale for a m7 chord. I don't like the idea of "chord-scales" at all, and this question is one of the reasons why.

You have to understand the harmony of the tune you are playing. If it's a tune with chord changes, think about key centers for 4 or 8 bar sections. If it is a modal tune, or a modal section of a tune, then play the appropriate mode (usually Dorian for a m7 chord, but not always...)

Forget about questions like "what notes do I play over a Bm7" and start thinking about "what notes do I play to complement the harmony", or even more simply, "what key am I in". Play notes in the key you are in, emphasizing ones that fit over the current chord. Learn how the notes move from chord to chord (AKA "voice leading") and use that knowledge when constructing melodies.

I understand why the chord scale approach is taught (it's simple) - I just don't think it's useful. If you use chord scales as a basis for improvisation, you will just end up confused and frustrated later. Best to learn harmonic principles now.

 

[hakukani]

Bubba, that makes sense. How do I know when music is referring to the dorian minor vs. the other minor? (what is the other one called)
Is there a special symbolism, or is it something I should pick up from seeing the other chords around it?

You can use either mode with a minor 7 chord. The 'altered' notes would appear in the 'extensions' ---9th 11th and 13th chords.

As is said above, it's better to know the voice leadings from chord to chord than trying to fit a scale to a chord. You end up just playing scales.

 

[JL]

The question was more geared towards a b minor scale, not necessarily a b minor chord. Sorry I'm not the best with this notation lol

Ferlas, the notation is important because it helps to reduce confusion. The big confusion here, I think, is a typical problem where chords and scales get mixed up, as well as key center. These are all related, but different. So the notation can be used to differentiate between them. Some conventions are as follows:

Roman numerals (I, IV, V, III, VI, etc) refer to chords, NOT scales or scale degrees. The numeral specifies the chord root in relation to the key center. So the I chord in the key of C is C. The V chord in the key of C is G. And more specifically, the Imaj7 chord is Cmaj7 and the V7 chord is G7. Often the roman numeral will be stated in lower case for minor chords: iii in the key of C would be an Emin chord. And so on.

Arabic numbers are used for scale degrees or chord tones. So in the key of C major, the '3' is E (the note E, not the chord), b3 is Eb, 5 is G, b6 is Ab, etc.

For a chord, the numbers 1,3,5,7,9, etc refer to the chord tones:

C maj7 chord is C E G B (1 3 5 7)
C7 is C E G Bb (1 3 5 b7)
Cm7 is C Eb G Bb (1 b3 5 b7)
D7 is D F# A C (1 3 5 b7)
etc.

Note that scale degrees are not the same thing as chord tones. For example, in the key of C, the 3rd of a Dmin7 is F. But that F is the '4' in the key of C.

Hope that helps sort out the notation for you. It's more important than you might think.

 

[hgiles]

Hey, I've got a question. So I'm finally learning to get away from the blues scale in my solos. Something came up though. I was looking at jamey aebersold's book ii - V7 - 1 and I came across this, it might seem stupid but here goes.

When you are playing a minor 7th chord, say in B, what are the notes? Do you simply take the same notes from the D scale and play them starting on B? Because in my aebersold book, it includes a G#, which is actually part of the original scale.

I guess the main quesiton I'm asking is this. When playing a minor 7th chord, what are the notes?

I, II, bIII, IV, V, (VI or bVI?) bVII, VIII

My aebersold book wrote in a g sharp, but if I were to play the note as if it were in D minor then it would have a g natural. Help?

Thanks.

Ferlas good question. You gave us a chord (B-7) and you gave us the key (D). The chord tones are B-D-F#-A. This is the diatonic chord built off the sixth degree of the scale, hence it's referred to as the vi chord. It has many chord tones on common with the tonic chord, in fact it has the same chord tones as a D6. It stands to reason that it substitutes quite effectively for tonic chords - D, DMaj7, D6, etc.

Having said that you are asking what kind of G to play. I would first strongly favor the G natural, since it is diatonic to the key and provides greater harmonic clarity than a G#.

In my opinion, Aebersold goes way wrong here, trying to put the Dorian mode on every minor seventh chord that shows up in a piece -- It sounds ****** (harmonically ambiguous).

 

[Pete Thomas]

Ferlas good question. You gave us a chord (B-7) and you gave us the key (D). The chord tones are B-D-F#-A. This is the diatonic chord built off the sixth degree of the scale, hence it's referred to as the vi chord. It has many chord tones on common with the tonic chord, in fact it has the same chord tones as a D6. It stands to reason that it substitutes quite effectively for tonic chords - D, DMaj7, D6, etc.

Having said that you are asking what kind of G to play. I would first strongly favor the G natural, since it is diatonic to the key and provides greater harmonic clarity than a G#.

In my opinion, Aebersold goes way wrong here, trying to put the Dorian mode on every minor seventh chord that shows up in a piece -- It sounds ****** (harmonically ambiguous).

I agree about Aebersold going wrong here.

HOWEVER:

What if that Bm7 (in the key of D) is followed by an E7?

We could also now be (theoretically) in a very short new key centre of A or A minor. In this case the G# is good/fine/OK/spectacular or whatever depending on how youm use it.

 

[FawltyTenor]

I think it's bad to get overly focused on the scale thing. There's a lot of ways to approach these things...

If the minor chord is a key center (even temoporary) a lot of times the major seventh will be used as it more strongly wants to resolve to the minor tonic. Or as a passing tone for a pre-dominant (ii) function...of course that note becomes the b5/#4 of the following V chord in a ii/V situation also, certainly not an avoid note by any means.

Also, the half-dimineshed ii chord is a common substitution for the minor ii as well, and in some situtions you might be able to play a phrygian type sound too.

There's countless substitutions available, so I think it's key - "how does it sound?", and how do the guide tones resolve. Also, if your playing an idea and doing melodic sequencing, you might be more concerned about continuity of the melodic sequence, providing the conclusion works. Again, all comes back to how does it sound.

A common way to study this would be to take a favorite solo, and try to break down what was played and how it fit together. Sometimes it seems to be closely aligned with the harmony, but often is more about keeping the melodic line going, or any number of substitutions.

I often wonder how theoretical a lot of the great players like Armstrong, Prez etc. were really thinking. Sure, you can look at their work and it's often consistent with jazz theory, but I wonder if they just were playing what sounded best to them...

 

[JL]

There's countless substitutions available, so I think it's key - "how does it sound?", and how do the guide tones resolve.

A common way to study this would be to take a favorite solo, and try to break down what was played and how it fit together. Sometimes it seems to be closely aligned with the harmony, but often is more about keeping the melodic line going, or any number of substitutions.

I often wonder how theoretical a lot of the great players like Armstrong, Prez etc. were really thinking. Sure, you can look at their work and it's often consistent with jazz theory, but I wonder if they just were playing what sounded best to them...

Exactly. If you take almost any improvised jazz solo line and compare it to the chords, you'll find all kinds of notes that break the rules, but sound good. It usually has to do with where/when the note is sounded. A lot of 'wrong' or chromatic notes can be played as passing tones on the upbeat and even sometimes full on the down beat. It depends on context and the melody line.

A few months ago my guitarist gave me a recording of a jazz tune in a minor key that he wanted the band to learn. I worked out the head and when I played it for him, he said "wait a minute that phrase can't be right; it's got the maj 3rd over a minor chord." And it did have that maj 3rd, more than once, but they were passing tones and they sounded good and repeated listenings of the tune proved I was right (I like to be right! On occasion). The point is, if the composer of this piece had just stuck to the dorian mode over that section, he wouldn't have come up with the great melody line and it wouldn't have been the same tune at all.