[hnthere]

I have a question that people on the forum have approached from different angles and I'll just ask it straight-up: how long did it take you to reach a point of generally sounding the same each time you play? Not to achieve the sound you were aiming for, but just a consistent sound even if your goal was something else.

I started playing alto a few years (in my mid-50s) and took lessons at least every couple weeks for a year or so. Since then, I've been on my own. Sometimes when I practice, maybe 10% of the time, my sound is amazing ... but another 10% of the time I worry that a neighbor might call Animal Protection. Most of the time, I'm in between, right where someone of my ability should be, I guess.

I've never recorded myself, so it's all subjective, but I believe the variation is real. On top of that, even when the sound otherwise seems normal, sometimes I can bend a note down and up by more than a full tone, other times by barely more than a half tone. I've confirmed those on a tuner. It's the same with a Front-F, sometimes I can drop the pitch much further than others, or with a smoother drop and rise. Maybe I'm more consistent on my "classical" setup - a Vandoren Al3 usually with a 3-1/2 Hemke - but I'm not convinced even that is true. It's always the same sax, a Bundy 1.

I know I haven't been playing enough recently and need to do more long tones, both things I'm working on, but is that the entire story? Even when I was much more disciplined about both of those things, the especially good or bad sounds would strike randomly and I don't think they were less common then. I assume progress happens more slowly at 59 than at 14, all else being equal, and am curious about other people's experiences with this. Thanks.

 

[skeller047]

You’ve been playing for a few years, and you have a classical set up, and, I presume, a jazz set up? First off, I’d suggest sticking with one or the other, at least for a couple years.

To answer your question directly, I sounded the same every day after about a month. Of course, I was just a kid (12), and I was already playing clarinet. I played every day. That was 60 years ago, and while I haven’t played every day since then, it’s been way more days than not.

I can’t say I sounded the way I wanted to then, but I did reach a point after 6 or 7 years when I was generally happy with my sound. I’m happier now than I was then This does not mean I didn’t work on my sound, but I more worked on my music concepts, learning tunes and improvisational approaches. Sound grew out of that study. I did do long tones, though I would recommend playing slow melodies beautifully instead.


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[Saxguy_Ed]

Maybe 1 year of hard practice. I had already been playing in middle school, but right after when I got a new mouthpiece, I started seriously practicing (not as efficiently as I could have). But I did start putting the horn in my mouth every single day for hours at a time which took me much further than my 3 years of sort of playing in middle school. I highly recommend you record yourself, especially playing along with a speaker...that's when I started to improve. Tuners are important for bends and mouthpiece exercises and to see if you're in the vicinity of the correct pitch, but drones are a much better use of time imo. Really, it is your ears you want to train to play in tune so you can recognize when you're not. Muscle memory is important too obviously, but by training your ears and embouchure at the same time, you will progress much faster than just the tuner imo. Check out "The Tuning CD" for long tone practice, a well respected technician/player told me this and he was right...it works better for me than any tuner, you should start to see the benefits fairly quickly if you use it with your long tones. The saxophone is a hard instrument to play consistently at first (you should have heard the sounds that came out of mine), the important thing is more how often you practice than how long you do it for, although it's good to build endurance too. It's probably best to stay on the classical setup for a while at the beginning. You're right to practice bends, that will help you develop the flexibility to make the pitch adjustments you need, and if you can already bend down a full tone you are doing really well. The Klose 25 Daily Exercises book is good (Bird used it a lot and even quoted it in his playing), I don't use it enough but I used it more when I was younger. I hear Rubank is good, the DeVille Universal Saxophone Method is pretty good too, Ferling 48 Etudes is a little more advanced imo but definitely approachable...I think I'd recommend Klose 25 Daily Exercises and a Rubank Saxophone book. The Dave Liebman book "Developing a Personal Sound" might be something to consider because it goes over this issue which a lot of players face, sounding like/discovering the saxophone sound in their head. Ultimately putting in some time every day should reduce the variability in your playing by forming good habits that are reinforced each time you pick up the horn.

I hope this was helpful, you probably play far better than I do anyways. I have been playing almost 10 years and consistency is something I'm trying to work on too.

Ed

 

[lesacks]

I've never recorded myself, so it's all subjective,

Even if you record yourself it's still subjective... but in a totally different way, for beginners, anyway.
It's just one tool, but including recording yourself as part of a practice routine is really a powerful tool - I found and it's consistently recommend in SOTW.

 

[click]

I have a question that people on the forum have approached from different angles and I'll just ask it straight-up: how long did it take you to reach a point of generally sounding the same each time you play? Not to achieve the sound you were aiming for, but just a consistent sound even if your goal was something else.

I started playing alto a few years (in my mid-50s) and took lessons at least every couple weeks for a year or so. Since then, I've been on my own. Sometimes when I practice, maybe 10% of the time, my sound is amazing ... but another 10% of the time I worry that a neighbor might call Animal Protection. Most of the time, I'm in between, right where someone of my ability should be, I guess.

I've never recorded myself, so it's all subjective, but I believe the variation is real. On top of that, even when the sound otherwise seems normal, sometimes I can bend a note down and up by more than a full tone, other times by barely more than a half tone. I've confirmed those on a tuner. It's the same with a Front-F, sometimes I can drop the pitch much further than others, or with a smoother drop and rise. Maybe I'm more consistent on my "classical" setup - a Vandoren Al3 usually with a 3-1/2 Hemke - but I'm not convinced even that is true. It's always the same sax, a Bundy 1.

I know I haven't been playing enough recently and need to do more long tones, both things I'm working on, but is that the entire story? Even when I was much more disciplined about both of those things, the especially good or bad sounds would strike randomly and I don't think they were less common then. I assume progress happens more slowly at 59 than at 14, all else being equal, and am curious about other people's experiences with this. Thanks.

https://tamingthesaxophone.com/saxophone-mouthpiece-exercises

I think that mouthpiece only exercise helped me to gain the control necessary for consistent tones.

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?205309-Mouthpiece-in-the-Car-Anyone-Else-Doing-This

 

[Morph1590]

It's an interesting questions, a couple things come to mind.

I think there will always be some variation in how you sound, with reeds being a primary culprit. We also always have bad day and good days, I think maybe the goal isn't necessarily to reduce the variability, but make it so even on your "bad" days you sound great.

 

[Grumps]

Saxophone fingerings are relatively easy when compared to other instruments. So learning to play can be deceptively easy when getting going. The hard part, however... is making a horn sound like a saxophone. Some never get there... and still play... quite a bit. But the first step is realizing it; that your tone needs work. To do so you really have to concentrate on each note you play, and what you're doing with it. Until it becomes habit. That you're saying something, rather than playing something.

 

[saxoclese]

In my years of teaching I discovered that in order to be consistent with tone production, small changes can make a great difference. The distance the mouthpiece goes in the mouth (placement of the top teeth), the angle of the mouthpiece in the mouth, the shape and firmness of the embouchure, the openness of the throat and the shape of the oral cavity, the amount of lower lip covering the teeth, holding position of the saxophone, posture, and breathing/playing with pressurized air. Other "mechanical" variables include the playing condition of the saxophone, the choice of mouthpiece, and how well the strength of the reed matches the mouthpiece.

- Use a mouthpiece patch, and make a groove where the top teeth go
- With good posture let the saxophone hang from the neckstrap and balance with both thumbs. Adjust strap length so the tip of the mouthpiece touches in the groove above the chin. Tilt the head down slightly to insert the mouthpiece.
- Although some players discount this technique, playing the mouthpiece alone is an excellent way to determine the tightness of the embouchure by the pitch that is produced.
- Playing a range of notes on the mouthpiece alone is also an excellent way to learn to control the voicing when you go to the whole instrument.
- A "standard" embouchure used by many players in both styles is to roll just enough lower lip back over the teeth to cover them.
- Whatever embouchure you choose, be consistent.
- To open the throat say "Haup" when you take a breath.
- For players just starting or getting back to playing, a "middle of the road" mouthpiece and reed strength are a good place to begin. Too hard a reed can limit flexibility and create intonation issues.

 

[Reet McVouty]

You've been playing for a few years, and you have a classical set up, and, I presume, a jazz set up? First off, I'd suggest sticking with one or the other, at least for a couple years.

To answer your question directly, I sounded the same every day after about a month. Of course, I was just a kid (12), and I was already playing clarinet. I played every day. That was 60 years ago, and while I haven't played every day since then, it's been way more days than not.

I can't say I sounded the way I wanted to then, but I did reach a point after 6 or 7 years when I was generally happy with my sound. I'm happier now than I was then This does not mean I didn't work on my sound, but I more worked on my music concepts, learning tunes and improvisational approaches. Sound grew out of that study. I did do long tones, though I would recommend playing slow melodies beautifully instead.

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Wow Steve, sounds to me like we have similar backgrounds. I was playing clarinet at 13 when I first heard Johnny Hodges and I immediately started saving up for an alto sax. The funny thing was I didn't realize that Hodges was special, at the time I just thought if you played the saxophone correctly it should sound like him. So, that's how I approached sound. Anyway, after a few months I had the sound that I pretty much have today. But, I've been playing on and off for fifty years and I still can't get to where I want to be technically and I doubt I ever will...

 

[Dr G]

- With good posture let the saxophone hang from the neckstrap and balance with both thumbs. Adjust strap length so the tip of the mouthpiece touches in the groove above the chin. Tilt the head down slightly to insert the mouthpiece.

I don't understand the reason to throttle the airway. I adjust the strap length such that when I push the horn forward with my thumbs to playing position, the mouthpiece goes to my mouth - not my chin. My head stays erect with airstream open.

 

[hnthere]

Thanks all - these comments and suggestions are great.

One thing that leaps out at me is how I probably sabotaged myself by buying different mouthpieces. The first I bought was a Hite Premiere, to replace the beater that came with the sax. Maybe 6 months later, I saw a Meyer Richie Cole at a great price, so I bought that too. I was spending a lot time with Teal's Art of... book and, when I saw a great price on a classical MP on eBay the following year, I bought it. Another year later, I snagged a more open John Thomas MP.

Having all of those to mouthpieces to choose from and experimenting with reeds really did encourage me to play more, which was my rationale for getting them. But it might have been one step forward and one step back every time I played.

I just bought a tenor off Craigslist - an early Conn 16M - and I'll stick with one MP. A rubber Hite is on its way, another eBay special, and I'll limit the experimentation with gear until I've established a more consistent approach. Part of the deal (with myself) to justify getting a tenor needing pads was that I will sell three of the alto MPs and keep only the plastic Hite I started with. I didn't think how beneficial that might be beyond the financial aspect.

I appreciate the advice and am glad I joined the forum after a few years of watching from the outside.

 

[J Dos Passos]

It is much easier in the beginning to maintain a decent tone and tuning with a firmer reed, rather than a soft reed. Soft reeds will play easier but you'll need to have much more control to keep the tone and tuning in line. Stay with the 3 1/2 set-up and relax. It will lock in for you. Then, you'll have a good foundation for any changes you may make.

 

[saxoclese]

I don't understand the reason to throttle the airway. I adjust the strap length such that when I push the horn forward with my thumbs to playing position, the mouthpiece goes to my mouth - not my chin. My head stays erect with airstream open.

Of course different players choose to do things a bit differently, but I don't quite get how tilting the head down slightly can "throttle" the airway. Try taking some audible breaths like when instructed by your doctor to listen to your lungs. Do it first with the head straight (as if balancing a cup of water on top of the head), and then with the head tilted down slightly. The throat opening and the airflow for me are the same. It is when the head is tilted up that the air feels and sounds as if it is constricted. Another point to consider is the shape of the saxophone neck. The end on which the mouthpiece is inserted tilts upward which naturally gives the mouthpiece a downward angle when it goes in the mouth. Tilting the head downward offsets this somewhat so the mouthpiece comes closer to entering straight into the mouth.

These concepts were taught to me when I studied with Dr. Ray Smith at BYU who plays both jazz and classical saxophone. Dr. Smith was a student of Eugene Rousseau.

 

[Dr G]

Of course different players choose to do things a bit differently, but I don't quite get how tilting the head down slightly can "throttle" the airway. Try taking some audible breaths like when instructed by your doctor to listen to your lungs. Do it first with the head straight (as if balancing a cup of water on top of the head), and then with the head tilted down slightly. The throat opening and the airflow for me are the same. It is when the head is tilted up that the air feels and sounds as if it is constricted. Another point to consider is the shape of the saxophone neck. The end on which the mouthpiece is inserted tilts upward which naturally gives the mouthpiece a downward angle when it goes in the mouth. Tilting the head downward offsets this somewhat so the mouthpiece comes closer to entering straight into the mouth.

Are you saying that this is specific to alto sax?

And yes, when I tilt my head down, my throat feels constricted.

 

[JL]

Of course different players choose to do things a bit differently, but I don't quite get how tilting the head down slightly can "throttle" the airway.

I agree that different players can do things differently and still get good results. But after seeing an interview with Lew Tabakin where he said he tilts his head up a bit to open the air stream, I tried it. I held a long tone, then experimented tilting my head downward, then upward. What I found was that the sound was noticeably fatter and clearer with my head tilted back slightly; when I moved my head down a bit, the sound seemed more pinched and thinner. So whether or not the throat is constricted either way, I could hear a significant difference and I prefer what I hear with my head up a bit (not seriously tilted back or anything). **(HOWEVER see below!)**

Others may find differently, but based on what I've experienced, I'll go with keeping my head up.

p.s. This is on a tenor; maybe it's not so critical on alto, but I don't want to pull the alto out right now and see since I rarely play it anyway.

As to consistency, like everything else, consistency in your tone quality should improve over time with practice and time on the bandstand.

**Just to be certain, I just picked up my horn and tried tilting my head back & forth while paying close attention to what was going on. I discovered that when I tilt my head down, the REED closes off a bit and that seems to be what is affecting the sound, rather than anything going on in my throat. When I adjust my embouchure to prevent the reed from closing off (while my head is tilted down), the sound improves. So this seems to have more to do with the reed than the throat. It just goes to show how many subtle factors are at play.

 

[saxoclese]

So there is no misunderstanding about what I wrote. A common problem that students have when learning to play the saxophone is setting the neckstrap too short or too long because they haven't yet learned how it should "feel". This in turn creates not only posture problems but embouchure problems as well related to the angle the mouthpiece enters the mouth. A proven method to teach students the way to find the correct neckstrap length is to keep the head level as if they are balancing a cup of water on top and adjust the neckstrap so that the tip of the mouthpiece touches the curve above the chin. A slight tilt of the head forward allows the mouthpiece to enter the mouth at the proper angle while maintaining good posture. Granted, accomplished players may have different neckstrap settings, head positions, and different angles the mouthpiece enters the mouth they prefer and that work for them. That should not invalidate a proven method of teaching fundamentals to beginning players, or players struggling with consistency in their tone production.

 

[rzzzzz]

i got to say, playing on the straight soprano has helped me get into a good habit. holding that little sucker high, and getting a full perpendicular angle on the mpc really opens things up, and reminds me to get that same basic angle on tenor and alto.

 

[Dr G]

I agree that different players can do things differently and still get good results. But after seeing an interview with Lew Tabakin where he said he tilts his head up a bit to open the air stream, I tried it. I held a long tone, then experimented tilting my head downward, then upward. What I found was that the sound was noticeably fatter and clearer with my head tilted back slightly; when I moved my head down a bit, the sound seemed more pinched and thinner. So whether or not the throat is constricted either way, I could hear a significant difference and I prefer what I hear with my head up a bit (not seriously tilted back or anything). **(HOWEVER see below!)**

Others may find differently, but based on what I've experienced, I'll go with keeping my head up.

p.s. This is on a tenor; maybe it's not so critical on alto, but I don't want to pull the alto out right now and see since I rarely play it anyway.

As to consistency, like everything else, consistency in your tone quality should improve over time with practice and time on the bandstand.

**Just to be certain, I just picked up my horn and tried tilting my head back & forth while paying close attention to what was going on. I discovered that when I tilt my head down, the REED closes off a bit and that seems to be what is affecting the sound, rather than anything going on in my throat. When I adjust my embouchure to prevent the reed from closing off (while my head is tilted down), the sound improves. So this seems to have more to do with the reed than the throat. It just goes to show how many subtle factors are at play.

Most importantly, as you demonstrate, LISTENING while you play is key to dialing in good tone.

 

[adamk]

29 years ago I used to angle the sax down and keep my head facing straight out which put almost a 45 degree angle instead of 90 fort he mpc to my face.
My tech (who is an accomplished sax player) told me to bring the sax up so the mpc was horizontal.
Really helped with tone production.
Learned on SOTW about biting on higher notes.

 

[JL]

Most importantly, as you demonstrate, LISTENING while you play is key to dialing in good tone.

Yeah Dr G, for me that's the bottom line. I do think it's worthwhile to experiment with how you hold the horn, your posture, embouchure, air stream, etc. Then listen closely to the results and adjust accordingly. You may not be able to say exactly why something you do results in a better tone quality, but you can discover how to achieve the best result. Of course anyone who is teaching needs a proven methodology to use and I think saxoclese has it essentially correct; there are some basic principles involved and once a good foundation is built, then players will tend to find their own way from there.

The consistency comes from repetition and habit-forming. The goal is to form good habits, not bad ones. I hope I don't have too many bad ones to iron out!