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Discussion Starter #1
Sorry if this is here somewhere, searched but could not find...
just got an old conn 10m. Pads, Keys, everything seems fine mechanically. when I place mouthpiece far enough on cork, everything is great, no trouble. Last night, for the first time, I took a tuner out and tried to tune it, to determine where, on the cork, the mouth piece generally needs to be placed. I had to pull the mouthpiece out much farther than where I had been playing it. Thats when I got the unwanted vibrato/warbling. a little bit on low g, more on f, more as I went lower. Is there a way to deal with this without adding some kind of neck extension? In case it comes up, I played 25 years ago, just picking it up again, about two weeks ago. Mid life crises or what not. Thanks for your help.
 

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I'm a long time Selmer player, but several years ago there was a high school girl in the local community band who showed up playing a Conn 10M that belonged to her school. She was always horribly sharp and could not get the pitch down. I played it with the mouthpiece that was in the case (I forget now, what kind of mouthpiece it was) and for me too, it was unplayably sharp. The next week I brought her an older Selmer Soloist long shank which she tried and loved, and she was able to fit it comfortably on the neck and bring her pitch center down.

So only based on this incident I am going to say that I found a 10M to play better in tune with a larger chambered mouthpiece. And this could also just be my own physiology at work. I also had lots of problems years ago with overall sharpness on a Selmer Balanced Action too...until I switched to a larger chambered mouthpiece (a Morgan).
 

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You could:
1/ change horns
2/ keep your horn and change mpcs: IOW get a mouthpiece with more inner volume (larger chamber, no throat, longer shank, less baffle)...
3/ keep your horn & mpc and experiment with other necks (but that's a more perillous exercise 'cause you horn might end up with uneven intonation).

Good luck
 

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I suspect that it's your embouchure, not the horn. Check the pitch of the mouthpiece off the horn. It should be G concert or below. If it's higher, then you're biting or have tension in your throat. Once you get the pitch down, push the mouthpiece further on. You can also check by playing a low b with the octave key, making it go up an octave to the next b. Compare this pitch with the regular fingering (x00|000). They should match.

Hope this helps...
 

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Hey Willard I think I can help - we are kindred spirits - I just bought a 10M in May after 25 years off from playing!
Have learned more since May than the 15 years prior that I played!
10M was my first horn but I didn't know jack. Let me dad talk me into relacquering it, then sold it later as I "had to have a Selmer".
Now I see what a great horn this is. But people call it "mouthpiece-sensitive". Read this forum. Look under technical/acoustic section - lots of talk in there about chamber size/tuning/etc.
I am not as technically knowledgeable as those guys on that forum, but I have good ears and here's my take from playing this horn and talking to guys:
"Mouthpiece-sensitive": There is some truth to this as with everything. But what it means exactly will vary player to player.
For me it means I got a Soloist short shank and was excited because that's what Joe Henderson played and I loved his sound. I've since learned that (a) I won't get anything like his sound, even if I could make that Soloist work on this horn (I can't - it had to be way out on the cork) (a#) You are best advised to get a larger-chamber, more traditional mpc for a horn like this. I have a newer Link STM "NY" model that's been modified. This is a fairly large chamber. Large does not have to mean dark. A fairly close tip (mine is 6*) makes this Link pretty bright; really nice sound for me.
But the main thing is that you should be able to get in tune much better with a large chamber. But there are many variables. The main one is the player and his embouchure/wind concept. Read the article by a guy named Duke (last name) from the Yamaha web site, about mouthpiece placement for tuning. It clarified so much for me.
Summary: Getting a larger-chamber mpc (these Conns seem to really need that) and learning about staying loose with really good air stream breath support has helped me get the most out of this Conn.
Please PM me and I would like to talk more about our experience getting back into it with these great Conn tenors!
 

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Make sure the thing is set up properly, including the neck cork being fat enough to really hold the piece on. Key heights are important on Conns! Try a piece with a large chamber like a Link. Go to a music store and try some pieces out with a tuner or if there's a keyboard in the room use that. Try practicing your overtones to see where the horn tunes up with itself that way. Also make sure to play it with other people. Sometimes working on intonation just by yourself is deceiving because playing music with others requires you to blend with respect to dynamics and other people's pitch, what note you are playing within a chord etc. The 10M is a well designed horn and can be played easily in tune without having to be all the way off the neck cork! Good Luck!
 

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Play for a few more weeks at least and see if your embouchure relaxes. Remember you haven't played in 25 years. Now isn't to time to make any changes. Many new players have the same problem on modern horns. Sharpness usually indicates a biting problem. I play with 10M players all the time and they don't have a problem. Warbling usually indicates the mouthpiece is not in the correct position on the horn. Push the mouthpiece all the way in and relax. Remember, you had the same problem on the Selmer.
 

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You could:
1/ change horns
2/ keep your horn and change mpcs: IOW get a mouthpiece with more inner volume (larger chamber, no throat, longer shank, less baffle)...
3/ keep your horn & mpc and experiment with other necks (but that's a more perillous exercise 'cause you horn might end up with uneven intonation).

Good luck
This may be good advice but not for someone who hasn't played in 25 years. The worst thing to do is change equipment at this point.
 

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I suspect that it's your embouchure, not the horn. Check the pitch of the mouthpiece off the horn. It should be G concert or below. If it's higher, then you're biting or have tension in your throat. Once you get the pitch down, push the mouthpiece further on. You can also check by playing a low b with the octave key, making it go up an octave to the next b. Compare this pitch with the regular fingering (x00|000). They should match.

Hope this helps...
Great advice! Why would anyone advise someone who hasn't played in 25 years to start changing equipment?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Thanks to all for the good suggestions. Sounds like it is me and not horn, which makes sense. I have a lot of work to do. schlokrod... Sorry, don't know what pm is...post message? Sorry pretty new to forums. Yes, I too am learning more than when we were kids. I also want to practice more than when I was a kid. A lot more fun than working! Mine is a '65, according to serial number research. It does not have the naked lady, just stars. Don't know what that means as far as a particular model. I am using a Rico royal graftonite b5 mp. This is a medium chamber, according to web. I am open to suggestions as to what mp's work well with these horns. Thanks again to all, please keep the help coming.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Martinm5862...yours sounds like great advise as well. The mp I have allows me to make a good sound, as long as itbis pushed way on to the cork. I would still be intested in hearing thoughts as tonwhat mp for this type of horn. I have read that certain designs work better with certain mp's. Thanks
 

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Great advice! Why would anyone advise someone who hasn't played in 25 years to start changing equipment?
Because you can't always pair mpc X with horn Y, whoever the player. Cf Tharruff's post.
If possible, Lizard, have this horn testplayed by an advanced player (ideally with your mpc) to know whether it's really you. Graftonite B5 is a good mpc (as you say medium chber) that works well with any sax with a bore similar to Selmer (Yami, Buffet, Yani, etc) but your Conn has a different bore/taper.
Sorry for the little bit of humor in my 1st post, guess Martinm didn't get it.
 

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Mr. Lizard,
Your bari is around the same vintage as my Buscher 400. My 'son-in-law' uses a Rico Metalite or old LevelAire on it with no tuning issues.
I prefer my old Yamaha 5C. Again, no tuning issues.
While you are getting your chops back in shape you can wrap a little teflon plumbers tape around the neck cork to take up some of the 'wobble'. It's a lot cheaper than a new mouthpiece.
As for the warbling.... It might be in your best interest to have the old guy checked for leaking pads.
 

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Thanks to all for the good suggestions. Sounds like it is me and not horn, which makes sense. I have a lot of work to do. schlokrod... Sorry, don't know what pm is...post message? Sorry pretty new to forums. Yes, I too am learning more than when we were kids. I also want to practice more than when I was a kid. A lot more fun than working! Mine is a '65, according to serial number research. It does not have the naked lady, just stars. Don't know what that means as far as a particular model. I am using a Rico royal graftonite b5 mp. This is a medium chamber, according to web. I am open to suggestions as to what mp's work well with these horns. Thanks again to all, please keep the help coming.
PM means private message (a message that a member can send to another member in the Forum without the others reading it - it's used for more specific or private ends). If you click on a member's nickname, there's usually (unless there are restrictions) a window that opens that let's you PM that person.
 

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I know that...... I read tenor, but was thinking about it being the same vintage as my bari, so that's what came out.
My apologies for the old lady brain fade.

My tenor is a late 50's Pan Am, sort of, and it does well with medium/medium large chamber peices as long as they have nothing more than a slight roll over baffle. I use a HR Barone, older C*, and an old Yamaha on it with no issues.
 

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Yeah Willard PM is private messaging, and I just checked my settings to make sure I have it enabled (I do).
Go to "Settings" at the very top of this forum page, then to "General Settings", then Private Messaging. You'll want to OK at least some of the following: PM on, Receive PM from all members, Receive email notification, etc. Then click on the member's name and it will let you PM them.
I hope that like me you will find this so much more enjoyable with all the knowledge out there on the web. Back in the day I had zero expertise available, no teacher... no wonder I had no idea what a good sound was or how to get it, or even that a Conn 10M was an awesome horn!
In May I was like you: new horn, undeveloped embouchure, iffy mouthpiece for horn (turned out to be just wrong in my case), huge struggle. Now it's all coming together and it's like that song "I wish that I knew what i know now when I was younger..."
Bottom line:
1. Yes, larger chamber is probably better on these horns (very general statement).
2. But, it's as much a function of the player also. See advice above and elsewhere in this forum about good, loose embouchure for tenor, but remember the web is full of free advice from who knows where and they ain't you either.
3. Read the Duke article on the Yamaha web site! It is the most direct answer to some of your questions.
4. You can make chamber size/shape & mpc placement/horn design as complex as you want if you seek perfection. Take a look at the "Acoustic Science" section of this forum!
5. Really LISTEN to your favorite great players - which you probably have been doing otherwise you wouldn't have bought a sax...
6. Practice every day. Try to find a good teacher but I'm doing all right studying and practicing on my own and playing in the college "jazz" band.
 

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You should get another player to try it out.This will help you decide if it's you or a technical problem. I had the same trouble with a Grassi 2000 with a high baffled piece. Got an extension put on the mouthpiece, no problems. A lot of these older Bari horns work well with what they call Pickle barrel mouthpieces which have a large chamber, this is why a more modern mouthpiece won't work unless you add an extension to 'increase' the volume of the chamber.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Hey Schlockrod, I tried to PM, but don't have permission...or something...anyway...how's it going? My embouchure is improving. I was using a Rico Graftonite, but am trying out different sizes of Otto Link Tone Edge, and really like how they sound on the Conn. I am trying to decide on a size, and then I will probably send to Phil-Tone for his customized touches. I have a 6, 6*, 7, and 7* that I am trying out. So far I like the 7* the best. Best sound, and easiest on the low notes. Harder to get the high notes out, but I figure that will come with time. I seem to be more squeaky on the smaller tip openings. I also feel like it is easier to play in tune. The links are a little shorter than the Rico, maybe that is some of the issue of sharpness. How's your playing? What discoveries have you made lately?
 
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