[J-Moen]

With all the excess time at home, I've been doing projects around the house, saxophone playing (when the wife says it's okay), and some other hobbies.

However, I've decided it may be time to undertake another hobby and invest in a project horn.

I own a copy of "The Saxophone Manual" by Stephen Howard, but haven't read it fully.

Obviously, I'm checking eBay and local marketplaces to find a decent horn for this, and I have the means to buy a decent horn for the money.

I'm not looking to do any major repairs, so I'll most likely just be looking into something I can disassemble, clean up/remove tarnish, repad, keybreplacement and, possibly (but hopefully not), some minor straightening work (rod/body) if I have to.

So, do I start by investing in a horn, and buy tools as I need them? Or should I buy a set of equipment and then find a horn that suits what I can do?

Also willing to take recommendations on good first project horns and what all equipment to have for this undertaking.

 

[saxoclese]

I started a thread related to this topic that may answer some questions you might have in addition to the excellent manual by Stephen Howard. https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showt...n-Sax-Repair&p=3735190&viewfull=1#post3735190

My best advice for your first project horn is to stay away from old vintage Conns and Bueschers---especially those that are being sold "as is" on EBay. They are great saxes but can present problems that challenge even techs with lots of tools and experience. I strongly recommend getting a used YAS-23 (or equivalent Vito made in Japan) with no structural damage or missing parts. Minor dents can be taken to a local shop. They are well built and easy to work on and you will have a good back up instrument when you are finished.

When I have trained an apprentice I have them buy one of these and the first assignment is to disassemble and reassemble the sax 3 times before the first lesson in repair.

 

[J-Moen]

I started a thread related to this topic that may answer some questions you might have in addition to the excellent manual by Stephen Howard. https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showt...n-Sax-Repair&p=3735190&viewfull=1#post3735190

My best advice for your first project horn is to stay away from old vintage Conns and Bueschers---especially those that are being sold "as is" on EBay. They are great saxes but can present problems that challenge even techs with lots of tools and experience. I strongly recommend getting a used YAS-23 (or equivalent Vito made in Japan) with no structural damage or missing parts. Minor dents can be taken to a local shop. They are well built and easy to work on and you will have a good back up instrument when you are finished.

When I have trained an apprentice I have them buy one of these and the first assignment is to disassemble and reassemble the sax 3 times before the first lesson in repair.

That is a fantastic resource thanks, I will be building up a shopping cart of most all those things you pointed out in the other thread.

Back to the sax, that is sad to hear. A vintage Conn or Buescher or stencil was what I had in mind. While I'm not overly opposed to the Yamaha or vito-yamaha, my preference would be to bring life to an otherwise ignored vintage horn a little older than the Yamahas.

What about a Leblanc Vito? Or a German horn?

 

[JayeLID]

Back to the sax, that is sad to hear. A vintage Conn or Buescher or stencil was what I had in mind. While I'm not overly opposed to the Yamaha or vito-yamaha, my preference would be to bring life to an otherwise ignored vintage horn a little older than the Yamahas.

What about a Leblanc Vito? Or a German horn?

There are two ways to look at it.

The 'problem' with a Vito-Yama is, they are gonna be expensive even as a project horn (like $200+ for an Alto)...while something like a Conn Shooting Star, or a Vito Kenosha, King Cleve or 613, etc are gonna be pretty cheap (more like $100).

The advantage of the former is, you can eventually sell it for around $400-450, while the latter(s) more like $275-$350ish.

Here are some good candidates, if you wanna keep initial acquisition price down , IMHO:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-EV...895485?hash=item5b6e05c3bd:g:2jAAAOSw4wZeSB98

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-Mi...569865?hash=item44573fb849:g:paoAAOSwdb5eLh4A

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Olds-D-E-S...610062?hash=item4b7262934e:g:fw4AAOSwr9ReHMvx

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-CL...208476?hash=item3b45264d1c:g:FsgAAOSwFIFeXqX8

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cleveland-...401719?hash=item3fdf3f3737:g:FV4AAOSw2oVeie9c

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Jupiter-JA...597874&hash=item3660a205f5:g:RywAAOSwo~BeiSdK

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-KI...233797?hash=item289186f945:g:xY4AAOSwNelebFbo

 

[JayeLID]

As far as tools, Saxoclese's list is a good one.....you can also just start with the MM Kit

https://musicmedic.com/products/repair-kits/musicmedic-com-saxophone-repair-kit.html

It is what I started with on the first 2 or 3 horns I did...

I then slowly acquired other tools as I decided to delve in further.

The torch isn't up to much; I quickly went to a hardware-store-bought propane torch....but the rest of kit was mostly useful.

It will need to be added to initially. Get some tech screwdrivers, a better pad slick, and probably an additional set of pliers.

That is all I had on my first 3 horns, I left the bodywork and hole leveling to an outside tech, to whom I delivered the disassembled body.

From there you can decide if you wanna invest in things like

~ rotary tonehole files

~ some basic dent rod/dent ball sets

~ tenon expander

~ neck rods and balls

~ mallets and burnishers

~ a professional chem cleaning solution

etc....

The kit is cheap...significantly expanding on it can become quite pricey.

If you get into the dent rods and balls and the tonehole files, for instance, you are looking at an expenditure of a good $600+ total beyond the kit. If you went for ALL of the above, plus a really good arsenal of pliers, screwdrivers, anvils, mallets, etc...you can get over $1g quite fast.

But it'd be a very good, basic tooling setup, also. And it pays for itself quite fast....even rudimentary set-up work on a 'project horn' done by a tech (remove dents, clean body, level holes), with the padding left up to the owner...is still gonna run around $80-100 per horn. Just having neck pulldown repaired by a tech would be $30-50; having a post resoldered around $25 min.
So after horn #5, really your investment is beginning to be pay for itself.

 

[saxoclese]

My latest apprentice's first project was to overhaul a YAS-23 and he did such a good job that it became a loaner horn for his private students. Then he got a good deal on a Mark VI tenor from his old high school. I knew he'd be in over his head, but he was determined. That overhaul took a lot of work and effort on his part, but he now plays that horn professionally. Then he thought it would be fun to pick up a Conn C-melody and overhaul that too. It kicked his butt even after all the prior experience, and he has still not completed that one even with lots of help from his mentor, and he had the advantage of a well equipped shop and someone to back him up.

 

[J-Moen]

Thanks Jaye! Didn't even realize they had a full kit. That simplifies things a bit!

 

[perina14]

I agree. I have done work and many horns and flutes but worked on a Conn New Wonder C soprano and found it a challenge. By the time all the screws were unfrozen, it was repadded and regulated (the octave mechanism was a particular challenge) I didn't even want to play it and subsequently sold it. Beautiful looking thing though...

 

[J-Moen]

Glad I asked this question. I was offered a nice Conn New Wonder stencil for under $100, with great silver plate and a gold wash bell. But also watching about 3-4 different YAS-23/Yamaha Vitos, and one French Model 37 Vito (anyone wanna comment on that? This if my favorite of the bunch, if its still reasonable to work on).

 

[Grumps]

I say go for a horn you're going to want to keep and play. You'll take great pride in it when you're done and the effort you put into it will be fully realized by you and no other. If you're an optimist, that is. If a pessimist... get the Yamaha.

 

[saxoclese]

Glad I asked this question. I was offered a nice Conn New Wonder stencil for under $100, with great silver plate and a gold wash bell. But also watching about 3-4 different YAS-23/Yamaha Vitos, and one French Model 37 Vito (anyone wanna comment on that? This if my favorite of the bunch, if its still reasonable to work on).

I've said my piece so you can do whatever you want. It sounds like you have already made up your mind anyway. I just like to see folks have the greatest chance of success on their first time project. After a positive first experience if one finds it something they want to pursue, they can take on greater challenges as they go along.

 

[smash]

If you are going to invest in tools, you are not going to want to do just one horn. I would recommend the Vito/Yamaha first then get into the Conn. It will take a few if not several overhauls to really produce something that plays well.

 

[J-Moen]

All of you have been a lot of help. So I have decided I'm going to undertake two horns with my newly ordered equipment! A YAS-23 or Vito stencil (whichever I can win on Ebay) and a much harder Conn or Conn Stencil. I feel that this give me best of both worlds.

 

[JayeLID]

A Vito 37 (Beaugnier or Kenosha) is a good, straightforward candidate for a first-timer.

The New Wonder isn't a bad choice, providing keys aren't frozen.... and I'd say that by virtue it is less than $100...you should grab it. I wouldn't do that one FIRST, however.

 

[clarnibass]

The advantage and disadvantage of an instrument that is more complicated/annoying to work is exactly that. More work when you start, but then a nicer or more "user friendly" instrument seems easier. Honestly hard to say what I would suggest. I started with an Eb clarinet, alto clarinet and Bundy II alto sax. If you start with a basic modern Yamaha then it might be easier and faster at first, and if you then try an old Conn it might mean learning a few more things as you go. OTOH if you start with that Conn, the initial learning curve might be longer. So it's probably all the same at the end.

As far as tools, other than some of the basic tools, I'd definitely get what you need and not anything specific before you need it. I was lucky and had great advice about tools when I started, and still ended with some useless tools. The last thing you want is a pile of expensive (and maybe very good) tool that you never use.

 

[B Flat]

The first horn I worked on was a Dorfler and Jorka Tenor.
It was very similar to a Keilwerth the new king.
Armed with a MM kit and a set of MM pads plus some tools I already had, I got stuck into it.
Repadded with probably 30% new springs all new corks and felts.
This became a great player for little money but a lot of enjoyment.
I later sold it and bought a Dolnet Belair as my next project.
Soon followed by a 12m and a The Martin Baritone and then an SML Rev D alto.
Each successive horn required more work.
I’ve learnt how to deal with many new challenges with each one.
I have also learnt my limitations or when to get someone else to finish it up.
No shame in that either.

 

[PigSquealer]

Glad I asked this question. I was offered a nice Conn New Wonder stencil for under $100, with great silver plate and a gold wash bell. But also watching about 3-4 different YAS-23/Yamaha Vitos, and one French Model 37 Vito (anyone wanna comment on that? This if my favorite of the bunch, if its still reasonable to work on).

That's a decent Conn for the money. Nothing wrong with a good fixer True Tone. You already own some nice modern saxophones. Vintage horns will have a completely different feeling and some challenges to playing. Something tells me you like that, being challenged. After you put a bunch of work into a Vito or Yamaha they are not very thrilling to play. Don't get me wrong they are good instruments. The vintage ones just have more character and are challenging to play.
MM has some great repair guides to read. https://musicmedic.com/articles.html
Just take your time and lots of pictures. You're going to need them on reassembly.

I say go for a horn you're going to want to keep and play. You'll take great pride in it when you're done and the effort you put into it will be fully realized by you and no other. If you're an optimist, that is. If a pessimist... get the Yamaha.

+1 yep

 

[J-Moen]

That's a decent Conn for the money. Nothing wrong with a good fixer True Tone. You already own some nice modern saxophones. Vintage horns will have a completely different feeling and some challenges to playing. Something tells me you like that, being challenged. After you put a bunch of work into a Vito or Yamaha they are not very thrilling to play. Don't get me wrong they are good instruments. The vintage ones just have more character and are challenging to play.
MM has some great repair guides to read. https://musicmedic.com/articles.html
Just take your time and lots of pictures. You're going to need them on reassembly.

This is all some great advice. I have indeed played a vintage Conn, a transitional, that was a college friends. It indeed was harder to play than my current horns, but I did love the huge sound it had, and have been debating picking one up for over 10 years. A Chu-Berry or 6m would be my favorite project, but I want to be good when I pick up one of those.

With that being said, I did end up purchasing the Cavalier (Conn Stencil), and it is in my charge. Now just waiting on my repair kit from MM. As of right now, I can tell it needs lots of spring/key height adjustments, maybe a few new pads, neck recork, and the silver plate needs a shining up. Excited to get this started though.

I also mistakenly forgot of a late night ebay bid I threw on a "The Martin" C-Mel, in rough shape. I ended up winning it. This one will probably turn into a long term project, but did end up taking away from my intentions to buy a yamaha/vito right away, but I'll continue to watch for one on the cheaper side while I work on this Cavalier!

 

[pontius]

My first re-pad (disassebled, cleaned, polished, new pads, corks, felts), I would consider it an overhaul more or less but not key fitting or dent work needed. was a Martin Handcraft stencil tenor. It came out very nice.
I then picked up a silver Conn New Wonder II and gave it the same treatment. It was great and I sold it on Ebay for around $900. The only tools I bought by that point was some nice screwdrivers. and a mini butane torch.

I then picked up a Buescher Aristocrat art deco tenor and sold the Martin that I previously fixed. At this point I added some swaging pliers and a hinge tube cutter to my arsenal for key fitting. I re-padded the Aristocrat and played it until I found a Conn transitional tenor. I overhauled the Conn and sold the Aristocrat.

My advise is do plenty of research and be methodical and take your time. If I were you, I would consider just doing a full repad on that cavalier. That way you can set everything straight instead of trying to work with things that may be wonky to begin with.

 

[J-Moen]

My first re-pad (disassebled, cleaned, polished, new pads, corks, felts), I would consider it an overhaul more or less but not key fitting or dent work needed. was a Martin Handcraft stencil tenor. It came out very nice.
I then picked up a silver Conn New Wonder II and gave it the same treatment. It was great and I sold it on Ebay for around $900. The only tools I bought by that point was some nice screwdrivers. and a mini butane torch.

I then picked up a Buescher Aristocrat art deco tenor and sold the Martin that I previously fixed. At this point I added some swaging pliers and a hinge tube cutter to my arsenal for key fitting. I re-padded the Aristocrat and played it until I found a Conn transitional tenor. I overhauled the Conn and sold the Aristocrat.

My advise is do plenty of research and be methodical and take your time. If I were you, I would consider just doing a full repad on that cavalier. That way you can set everything straight instead of trying to work with things that may be wonky to begin with.

That was actually something I Was considering. I was already pricing out pad sets from MM., and I was surprised how cheap you can pick up premium pads and roo pads.

As far as a Rod holder/organizer, what thickness/type of wood did you guys use, and what thickness of holes did you make?