[Grahamee]

Has anybody had any surprises after playing a low cost student horn. After a sudden need to get my hands on a low cost back up instrument, I got a real shock how good the cheap horn sounded.
My main horn was twenty times the cost of the back up. Yes, I had to do some quick and brutal adjustments. Bending the keys of the pinky table (they were way too high) and some of the pearl positions on the top stack had to be changed. The key work was poorly made from low cost material. Unlike most resonable average priced Mark 6 clones, this one was terrible, but I was just buying a banger and I expected little. Once I had fanny-ed on with it and it was more comfortable under the hands, do you know what.....great intonation, good sound. I'm left scratching my head.

 

[Beginnersmind]

I am just an amateur, but I have sort of been wondering the same thing. I have an older Yany A4 stencil (alto) which has a nice tone, but have been very impressed by the Jupiter 790 I got as a backup. Great intonation and very acceptable tone. Certainly not embarrassing at all. I got a Keilwerth ST90 for my daughter that blew them both out of the water.

 

[Dave Pollack]

Yup!

 

[Reet McVouty]

Has anybody had any surprises after playing a low cost student horn. After a sudden need to get my hands on a low cost back up instrument, I got a real shock how good the cheap horn sounded.
My main horn was twenty times the cost of the back up. Yes, I had to do some quick and brutal adjustments. Bending the keys of the pinky table (they were way too high) and some of the pearl positions on the top stack had to be changed. The key work was poorly made from low cost material. Unlike most resonable average priced Mark 6 clones, this one was terrible, but I was just buying a banger and I expected little. Once I had fanny-ed on with it and it was more comfortable under the hands, do you know what.....great intonation, good sound. I'm left scratching my head.

Or, you could have just bought a used, in good condition, Yamaha student model and not had to worry about making adjustments.

 

[ZootTheSim]

+1 on a used Yammy. My very cheap new 1990s vintage YAS-23 is the bomb. Very different from my Zephyr or The Martin altos, but very good in its own right. I plan to play it at my upcoming rock gig.

My very cheap tenor and alto Kohlert Bixley stencils also have a great tone and are solidly built, though they both need some adjustment. And my Armstrong tenor has a truly impressive tone that I often prefer to that of my TH&C, though it's not nearly as nice under the fingers.

 

[jgreiner]

"Student horns" today (within the last 20 yrs for sake of argument) are NOT what they were 30, 40 and 50 yrs ago. Let's take an older, maybe 1970's-80's vintage Selmer Bundy II alto for example. For the record, I also repair saxophones and still (unfortunately) run across those "gems" quite often. I'd say in the last 5 yrs or so, I've worked on 20-30 of them and easily 98% of them, even with a proper setup and perfectly sealing pads are simply not great saxophones. Are they sufficient for a young student? Sure, but the ergonomics (especially the LH pinky table) simply suck. I will say the last one that I worked on (just finished last week) did surprise the heck out of me and played very well. That LH pinky table aside though... Now take a Yamaha 23 or 52, which I believe arrived on the scene in the late 80's or so (someone correct me if I'm wrong). The ergonomics, build quality, key fit, ease of maintenance and more importantly, the general quality of sound you can get from one of those horns compared to the Bundy II is like night and day. Also, in the last 10-15 yrs, the horns coming out of Taiwan have improved greatly and most of them are ergonomic copies of the Selmer Mk VI. Build quality is much better than when they first appeared on the scene and I've played/repaired some that are honestly pretty damn good playing (and feeling) horns.
For those of us in the States......remember when Hyundai first appeared on the scene? They were regarded as literally "disposable" vehicles. Now they're a major auto brand and their quality has grown leaps and bounds. Quite similar to saxophones.

 

[ZootTheSim]

Now take a Yamaha 23 or 52, which I believe arrived on the scene in the late 80's or so (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

I believe the 23's were introduced around 1979-80.

 

[LostConn]

Once I had fanny-ed on with it and it was more comfortable under the hands, do you know what.....great intonation, good sound. I'm left scratching my head.

If you try to design your own cheap sax from scratch, chances are it will play poorly. But if you copy the body tube and neck of a top-quality saxophone, you can get a nice-sounding cheap horn. If you do a very precise job of copying the body tube and neck of a top-quality saxophone, you can get a great-sounding cheap horn with fine intonation.

Keywork is more complicated, as in your experience. It still needs to be fabricated and installed with great skill and care.

 

[Grahamee]

Keywork is more complicated, as in your experience. It still needs to be fabricated and installed with great skill and care.

I think that's very true

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk

 

[sandster]

I’m so happy I got a YAS21 from a member! Dave: FYI, I thought the YTS 23 sounded better in the higher reg.than the pro model.
Magnificent playing on both!!

 

[ZootTheSim]

Glad you're enjoying that 21, sandster. I'm still loving my "new" beater 23--all the way from BC, no less!

 

[sandster]

Glad you're enjoying that 21, sandster. I'm still loving my "new" beater 23--all the way from BC, no less!

Mecca!

 

[crabsushi]

I've played some pro gigs on a leblanc or vito student alto (yamaha stencil). Feels great and it's not my horn but the intonation is solid and I didn't feel like I had to fight the horn. I'd say the Yamaha 23 is your most reliable beater horn.

 

[Jazz Is All]

I bought a used Jupiter JAS 767 at a resale shop here years ago. This is not a musicial instrument store but does often have instruments along with all the other things that people sell to them and they then resell. I had gotten some real steals on great mpcs there so used to check in regularly. Anyway this is a supposed student to intermediate sax which is rated by some as better than the equivalent Yamaha model and for at least $100 less plus has an High F# key. It was spotless and looked hardly used with even the pads looking new. I played it and it was great all up and down, and I knew right away that some parent had bought it for their kid who then gave up. Too good to pass up really. I had just sold something to them and so when I offered $275 for it the woman said okay. I took it home and played it some but truthfully it couldn't match either the Conn NW I or TT Series 4 I had as my altos. So when I got the chance to sell it I did. Made a nice profit selling to a beginning student of my teacher who loved it. Truthfully, they are very good horns.

For three years I played first tenor in an 11-piece, 5 sax combo. I played my only horn at the time, a 1945 Comm III. The bottom end of it always blew the other sax guys away, even though one had a Selmer something or other. The newest horn, a fairly young guy had a Thomann tenor sax. The antique tenor model to be exact, which sells for 498 euros now with free shipping from Germany to Spain. He sounded okay on it and because he had just gotten it, offered to let me try it. It played fine but without the richness of he tone and sound that my Martin has. The keywork was good and frankly the pinky table was no big change for me since the one on my horn is a Martin Mods one and is plenty fast. So I thought,....hmmm, I wonder how the altissimo is and blew a scale from F# on up. Well, where I had always had to work to get the G to come out decently or at all....changing reeds and mpcs to achieve it.....this cheap sax blew it out loud and clear like it was G1. I almost sh¡t myself, but kept a straight face so nobody would know I was shocked and impressed.

So in summing up, these student horns have got note production down because they are made with computer programs, but in exchange they do it at the expense of loss of tone and sound quality because they do not have the partials and harmonic richness that a really great Vintage sax has in spades. Since playing G3 is not, for me at least, a total necessity I wouldn't take one of those over my own Martin any day. Anyway, since then my altissimo playing has improved so that that's not even an issue anymore.

 

[Jazzoetry]

For me horns have personality. I once had a student soprano . That horn was "Sweet" and fun to play. I eventually came across a VI Soprano (in the 70s) and let the much cheaper Soprano go. I never felt the same oneness with the VI Soprano so eventually let it go towards getting a VI Alto. I have a different soprano now. I look for good sound quality and fun to play.

 

[Jazz Is All]

For me horns have personality. I once had a student Winston soprano . That horn was "Sweet" and fun to play. I eventually came across a VI Soprano (in the 70s) and let the much cheaper Winston Soprano go. I never felt the same oneness with the VI Soprano so eventually let it go towards getting a VI Alto. I wish I had kept that Winston Soprano. I have a different soprano now.

I totally agree. Lots of people who sell Martin Committee tenors say that they are doing so because they can't deal with the pinky table although they love the sound. I understand that because it was more difficult than most at first. That in fact is why I spent the money to have it modded. So glad I did because the sound and tone can't be matched by anything IMHO. Plus there are other people on here who love theirs too and play with the original stock table with no problems. So ergos often bother some people more than others given the particular model of horn. I know that I never liked the New Wonder pinky table design, which is why I sold my alto. I once tried a MK7 soprano and frankly it had some terrible ergos in the pinkies. My 1928 Buescher sop is so much slicker and easier to play. Yet people will look askance at it for being old and buy a Mk7 for so much more or some other modern sop. I know because I tried to sell it once when I was in a bind, and the prospective buyer had her Conservatory prof look at it for her and he acted like it was junk just for being Vintage. So glad I was able to keep it because it's a fantastic sounding sax.

 

[JayeLID]

I think there's a slight problem with the title of this thread. A 'student' horn is not necessarily synonymous with a non-name-brand asian cheapie, which seems to be what the OP acquired ?

There's a pretty good distance between those asian cheapies and something like a Jupiter, Yama, or even something like a contemporary Olds or Blessing or Evette.

So which are we talking about here ? Because some respondents seem to have interpreted it one way, others another...

Personally, I don't even consider asian cheapies with the revolving-door names to be 'student' horns. They are...their own category (euphemistically speaking).

So, while indeed people report initial surprise at their newly acquired asian cheapie....it is still ultimately gonna be a crapshoot. They may be able to hold up to moderate playing decently, or may not. They may require more servicings to keep in good regulation, or may not.
Some apparently do hold up....just as many do not.

But as noted by others, for me...I don't get the particular logic of buying a $350 new horn when that same money can get you a reputed name-brand used one. Fine if you do, I ain't got no horse in your race...but it just seems far riskier to me. Also, while these sorta "I took a chance on a chinese cheapie and dang !...it worked out so well !" threads pop up now and again....there are far fewer "I took a chance on this cheap chinese horn....and it turned out to be a big mistake !" threads. Probably more because folks would not tend to wanna broadcast that sorta thing....as opposed to because more often than not, such horns turn out to be solid enough.

 

[Jazz Is All]

I think there's a slight problem with the title of this thread. A 'student' horn is not necessarily synonymous with a non-name-brand asian cheapie, which seems to be what the OP acquired ?

There's a pretty good distance between those asian cheapies and something like a Jupiter, Yama, or even something like a contemporary Olds or Blessing or Evette.

So which are we talking about here ? Because some respondents seem to have interpreted it one way, others another...

Personally, I don't even consider asian cheapies with the revolving-door names to be 'student' horns. They are...their own category (euphemistically speaking).

So, while indeed people report initial surprise at their newly acquired asian cheapie....it is still ultimately gonna be a crapshoot. They may be able to hold up to moderate playing decently, or may not. They may require more servicings to keep in good regulation, or may not.
Some apparently do hold up....just as many do not.

But as noted by others, for me...I don't get the particular logic of buying a $350 new horn when that same money can get you a reputed name-brand used one. Fine if you do, I ain't got no horse in your race...but it just seems far riskier to me. Also, while these sorta "I took a chance on a chinese cheapie and dang !...it worked out so well !" threads pop up now and again....there are far fewer "I took a chance on this cheap chinese horn....and it turned out to be a big mistake !" threads. Probably more because folks would not tend to wanna broadcast that sorta thing....as opposed to because more often than not, such horns turn out to be solid enough.

Just two weeks ago, don't know if you saw it, but Phil Barone posted a long rant about the crappy Chinese horns that the company he paid to make them for him then shipped to him. He said they all started having parts fall off and didn't play for shhit and then not at all when they fell apart. Terrible quality components and manufacturing. He was talking about ones from the Mainland not Taiwan or Hong Kong, but I don't know why he would have chanced that. He said that they refused to send him new good ones or refund his money and he ended up scrapping the whole lot and losing his shirt. So I think anyone who buys one of those type things....I saw one once at Sam's Club...is just wasting their time and money.

I learned that the hard way years earlier because I bought a cheap sax of that type from Kessler for the very reason that it was cheap. It was a close out in fact, and when I got it I found out why. It was called the Solist, and it turned out to be cheap junk. It needed to be set up even though the signed card in the case from Dave Kessler said that he had personally set it up and play tested it. Yeah, my butt he did. My Tech looked at it in despair and pointed out the rough metal filings in the bore of the neck and the fact that the screws holding the rods and posts were all different sizes. stuff like that. He said that from what he knows these saxes are made at different small workshops where each shop makes one part. Like one makes the bell, another the bow, another the lower stack and another the upper, yet another the rods, another the key cups, and so on. Then all those parts are put together in another main shop and shipped off. Of course since each shop is responsible for getting its own supplies and materials none of the parts match. It's manufacturing by a committee of deaf, blind, mutes who don't communicate with each other. Anyway it was a disaster and I ended up selling it to a resale shop here for a loss because nobody in his right mind in the sax world wanted it.

So yes, when I read student horn in the OT title I immedialtel thought of inexpensive name brand saxes not cheap no-name Chinese ones, which is why I wrote about my Jupiter alto. Like you said that is what I also consider a "student" sax, although in fact that Jupiter 769-767 is actually better than that and Stephen Howard reviewed it years ago an said that too. It's actually a better deal as the equivalent Yamahahaha as I mentioned although not as solidly built. I played it a bit and thought it a decent player for a modern sax but no match for any good vintage one I had played or owned. And the price was good. There's actually one on a selling site here for 475 euros and another for 375, which is an even better deal if in good condition. Mine was like new even for being in the case for a number of years-- in the kid's closet no doubt.

 

[saxoclese]

There was a time not too long ago when there were clear distinctions between what were marketed as "student model" and "professional model" saxophones. This was when the Bundy, Bundy II, Conn Director, Armstrong and later the YAS-23 were the student saxophones commonly used in school band programs. These were some of the "features" found on most "professional model" saxophones that were lacking on "student models" of the era.

Wire bell rim
Removable key guards
Detachable Bell
Octave key rocker assembly
Rib mounted posts
Adjustable felts on key guards
Adjustable oversize thumb rest
Regulation adjustment screws
Large octave touchpad
Ribbed bell brace (stronger)
Adjustable G# lever
Tapered rollers on keys
High F#

Then Taiwanese saxophone manufacturing started to have an impact on the market and everything started to change. They began copying successful "professional model" saxophones along with their "professional features" and selling them at entry level prices due to lower manufacturing costs as "student model" saxophones. In a short period of time the features that once were used to distinguish student from professional models were no longer valid, because most of the saxophones at any price level had them and the line became "blurred". Today we need to look beyond the "cosmetics" and even to some extent how the instrument plays to see the differences. From a repairman's point of view, the differences between the two classes now include: 1) price, 2) quality of materials, 3) quality control, 4) attention to detail, 5) availability of parts and service after the purchase.

 

[area51recording]

My backup horn for a few years to my 10m was a Bundy II. I was always shocked at how well that thing played whenever I needed it. I bought it for $350 and that's what I sold it for......