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Playing without using octave key

12K views 42 replies 32 participants last post by  Fader 
#1 ·
I'm currently working on playing without using the octave key. Once you get used to it it actually seems to help intonation above A (where the octave key changes from body to neck). I find many horns go slightly sharp here and most people compensate.

I imagine this might be a good exercise for advanced players, but I wouldn't recommend it for beginners, the octave key is there to help get those notes. I find that by imagining the note I'm able to switch octaves, at least that's what I think I'm doing. Of course, I may be subconciously tightening the embouchure which many people would say is bad.

I just wondered if anyone else has tried this (on purpose that is, not just when your octave key is bust).
 
#2 ·
Pete Thomas said:
I just wondered if anyone else has tried this (on purpose that is, not just when your octave key is bust).
I find it really good for getting my embouchure set like it's supposed to be. I don't play in public without the octave key, but playing without it is part of my regular practice routine.
 
#3 ·
Pete Thomas said:
I find that by imagining the note I'm able to switch octaves, at least that's what I think I'm doing. Of course, I may be subconciously tightening the embouchure which many people would say is bad.

I just wondered if anyone else has tried this (on purpose that is, not just when your octave key is bust).
Yes, I highly recommend it. There are days when that's the "rule" that I set for myself for an entire hour or more - "no octave key". It's a natural, the first overtone. It will help set your voicing and should not require biting at all - it's all in the airstream. I love having the option of using those tones as a variation in the tonal palette. And, it helps when trying out a new horn to quickly isolate whether an "issue" is due to poor octave venting or having the mouthpiece in the wrong location on the cork.

Do it.

The contrary - playing the entire range of the horn with the octave key depressed - is much more difficult, but once mastered will enable you to play through any leaks (short of a pad falling out) that occur on a gig.

Both techniques are discussed in Dave Liebman's "Creating Your Personal Sound" (arggh, it's been so long... Is that the correct title? Sorry, Dave.)
 
#4 ·
I've just started to practice the same thing on clarinet. It makes the quality of your embouchure very apparent.
When I was in High School I used to play everything without the octave key, which was more out of laziness in not wanting to spend the time getting my Left Thumb in sync with the rest of my fingers. I wouldn't recommend doing that, though.
 
#6 ·
A year or two ago, my octave key busted (yes, yes...use a neck plug when your horn is in the case!) and I was doing a lot of playing at the time and didn't have a spare moment to bring it to my local tech. I simply rigged the key closed and played without it!

I haven't made it into an exercise persay, although I have practiced overtones and assorted activities when working towards altissimo, but I could see how it could be useful.

oh wait...haha, I just read this
"I just wondered if anyone else has tried this (on purpose that is, not just when your octave key is bust)."
 
#8 ·
Yes to all the above. Another benefit: it can allow lower overtones to creep (to varying degrees, which can be controlled) into the higher notes: you can do octave multiphonics pretty easily that way, but more subtle effects are possible. It's the growl without the growling.

I agree it helps intonation in certain spots, esp. a2.
 
#42 ·
Yes to all the above. Another benefit: it can allow lower overtones to creep (to varying degrees, which can be controlled) into the higher notes: you can do octave multiphonics pretty easily that way, but more subtle effects are possible. It's the growl without the growling.

I agree it helps intonation in certain spots, esp. a2.
This is a very old thread but I'm reviving it because many of these people don't seem to post much anymore and it would be interesting to see what people on the forum now say about the subject and if JL, Dr. G., Gary and PPT, the OP, still do this.

I've gotten more and more into playing without the octave key myself for a number of reasons. First it has a different sound to it when you overblow to the first overtone, because being a harmonic there are more partials in the note and that adds a richness to the sound that is often one I want. Secondly it's a lot faster and easier to play octave jumps on a note in either direction this way than using the octave key because there is no finger movement. Third it allows for a contrast in the two types of tone qualities when playing a line if you can switch between the 2nd harmonic and a note played with the octave key.

So for example you are playing a series of 3rds and you switch back and forth between playing them with the octave key and without it. Repeating a riff that way gives it an added effect or impetus to it I think. Finally, if you are already overblowing for the second harmonic to get the second octave then it is easier to be able to overblow the next harmonic and thus have a larger palette of notes to work with than you probably do when using the octave key because you are thinking of the scale of the horn as ranges controlled by the buttons and not sounds that you can get at any moment using your embouchure.

I don't know if that makes sense, but let me give an example. When I'm playing the second octave G I can play D above instead just with my embouchure. Being able to do that at will allows me to play D3 without needing to use the D palm key thus freeing me from playing a key that is traditionally the way you get that note. Going further that's the whole basis of altissimo fingerings which allow you to play a higher range without actually playing keys up at that range. I am not great at it yet by any stretch but I see that being able to play the harmonic series on as many notes as possible allows you to play every range of the horn with just the keys in the upper and lower stacks and forget about the front F and palm keys entirely.

I play without the octave key sometimes but once I go above G2, then the sax goes back down the octave.
As you keep working at it, you learn to overcome that and increase your range and ability to stay within that register without the key. At first the same thing happened to me. But now it only happens occasionally when I lose concentration on my embouchure. Otherwise I can play the upper stack notes up and down and inside and out at will without the key. It's a liberating feeling in fact and opens up vistas of new possibilities in your playing and not just working towards playing altissimo either.

......................................

The comparison for me to this is the trumpet. I just started to learn Cornet back in June and while I spend way more time on sax than it, I already see that this is possible with the sax because that is the whole technique of trumpet playing. There are only three keys and with those alone you learn to play the natural range of the horn which is 4 octaves. On the sax on the other hand, the natural range of 2.5 octaves is playable totally with the keys either with or without the octave key. This is why trumpet players get pisssed off when they first play with a saxophonist and learn that we have a secret button that does two thirds of the work for us while they're blowing their brains out trying to just play the same range well.

As of no on coronet (and I admit to lazing off during the summer) I can play a chromatic scale from Bb 1 to G1 although the closer I get to G the crappier I sound. Plus my intonation is shaky so far. So I am just trying to get a solid note with core and body to it and hold it for at least 12 beats to begin with as the first half of the goal for now. Pulling in my tonal accuracy is the second half of that goal.

On sax this was nothing to achieve at the beginning, but to do it on trumpet you are repeating some of the same finger positions but blowing a note a different interval above or below based on the interval series. In that simple partial scale Bb & F are both the 1st finger down only, C & G both no fingers at all, and B & F# are both the 2nd finger only. So to give a picture of the notes you can play on trumpet with the same fingering position, with all 3 fingers up and none depressed you can play:

C1, G1, C2, E2, G2, C3.

Thus the sequence is a 5th, 4th, M3rd, m3rd and a 4th. all achieved with the embouchure.

I am mentioning this because we can do the same thing on the sax and have both options of playing whereas the trumpet players only have this one. Therefore IMO, to not practice this method of playing not only misses, but also avoids an entire way of maximizing what one can do with the saxophone to make music.

Just my opinion of course and you may think otherwise, but I think it is well worth the time and effort to learn to do this better and better as I work on other areas of playing too.
 
#9 ·
The flip side to this -- someone brought it up the other day with reference to learning how to "break" high notes -- is to play in the lower register with the octave key depressed. This is not useful for performance, but it helps with the control of harmonics: how to let the lower ones creep into the higher notes and vice versa. As I say: this is a woodshed technique; it does not sound good, but it's interesting.
 
#10 ·
Reedsplinter said:
The flip side to this -- someone brought it up the other day with reference to learning how to "break" high notes -- is to play in the lower register with the octave key depressed. This is not useful for performance, but it helps with the control of harmonics: how to let the lower ones creep into the higher notes and vice versa. As I say: this is a woodshed technique; it does not sound good, but it's interesting.
Yeah, that's a great excercise for helping students learn to quit biting.
 
#11 ·
Reedsplinter said:
Another benefit: it can allow lower overtones to creep (to varying degrees, which can be controlled) into the higher notes: you can do octave multiphonics pretty easily that way, but more subtle effects are possible. It's the growl without the growling. .
Yes, I do it for this purpose sometimes. It's especially effective on the D just above the octave break. A nice effect for blues....
 
#13 ·
I do this at times both in practice and in real settings. Most of the time I think that the appropriate setting would be in a jazz/blues style. IMHO, playing the upper register without the 8va key gives a different "effect" per se. It seems to sound a bit "reedier(?)" due to the lower partial creeping into the higher notes, as mentioned by splinter
 
#14 ·
Reedsplinter said:
The flip side to this -- someone brought it up the other day with reference to learning how to "break" high notes -- is to play in the lower register with the octave key depressed. This is not useful for performance, but it helps with the control of harmonics: how to let the lower ones creep into the higher notes and vice versa. As I say: this is a woodshed technique; it does not sound good, but it's interesting.
This is a technique that my teachers gets me to use to practice keeping an open throat. Virtually impossible to break the high note without a very open throat.
 
#15 ·
Dr G said:
The contrary - playing the entire range of the horn with the octave key depressed - is much more difficult, but once mastered will enable you to play through any leaks (short of a pad falling out) that occur on a gig.

Both techniques are discussed in Dave Liebman's "Creating Your Personal Sound" (arggh, it's been so long... Is that the correct title? Sorry, Dave.)
:shock:

gotta try this. where is my sax?

And I do play the higher octave without the octave key when the passage goes so fast my slow thumb isn't fast enough to reach that key. But never tried it over a whole range. Let's shed some reed.
 
#17 ·
This technique along with the reverse mentioned by Reedsplinter and a lot of overtone work have gotten me a lot closer to sounding the way I'd like to sound.

The concept of hearing the note before you play it has been very important for me.
 
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