Sax on the Web Forum banner
1 - 17 of 17 Posts

· Banned
Joined
·
1,435 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
As I continue to play my 1925 Buescher C-Melody tenor, I wonder about my decision to play this unusual instrument since I am mostly learning and playing common jazz tunes. I am finding the old songs that lay very easy under the fingers on alto or tenor have to be relearned in keys with more accidentals. This makes improvising more challenging. I want to keep going with it but wonder if I'm making things harder for myself but choosing to play a C-Melody sax.
 

· Out of Office
Grafton + TH & C alto || Naked Lady 10M || TT soprano || Martin Comm III
Joined
·
30,061 Posts
Well it’s a good idea to know all the keys anyway, besides the ones people tend to think of as harder (B F# C# D# ) I don’t think have many standards as “default.”

If you enjoy the C melody stick with it. Near in mind it may not be the best choice if becoming professional is a goal
 

· Registered
Joined
·
4,616 Posts
If you play alone, you can play tunes in any key you like. If you play with a group, then just play your C melody in the keys you've already learned.

The part about about more accidentals makes no sense to me. An improviser has to be proficient in all 12 keys. Many jazz tunes, like All The Things You Are, have chord changes that essentially go through nearly all 12 keys just in that one song.

Furthermore, anything in Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, B will have fewer accidentals on alto. Bb, Eb, Ab, Db and Gb will have fewer accidentals on tenor.

So what is your ultimate goal here?
A. learn standards to play alone at home
B. learn standards to play with a group on C melody
C. learn standards to play with a group on some other sax (alto, tenor, etc.)

For A, you can play on any horn and in any key you wish. Pick up your tenor or alto and read the piano chart as is. Since you're alone, the key doesn't matter.
For B, you're already there.
For C, yes, you have to relearn in whatever key your transposing instrument needs to match the rest of the group. But this is not a big deal since you ultimately have to get proficient in all keys no matter which sax you play.
 

· Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2013-
Joined
·
5,935 Posts
If you have an Aunt Martha who comes over for the holidays, you can both play xmas tunes on the same sheet music.

She pounds the upright piano and you stand or sit beside.

Why not jazz standards? Plenty of fakebooks for you and Martha to share.

Use the parlor horn for its original purpose.
 

· Banned
Joined
·
1,435 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
The part about about more accidentals makes no sense to me. An improviser has to be proficient in all 12 keys. Many jazz tunes, like All The Things You Are, have chord changes that essentially go through nearly all 12 keys just in that one song.
I agree. I think that because of the physical layout of the sax I sometimes want to play in some of the more common keys. I think this is bad learning on my part. It's better to think in terms of the chromatic scale and be able to play any note without being hindered by the mechanics. I have been trying to do this on the piano, by playing in different keys. I want to be able to do this on sax too. It will take time to gradually learn where the notes are on the c-melody since I'm more used to the other saxes. And relearning the songs is interesting! It opens up a door in my brain because it means a song can sound the same but be fingered differently, even if it's still a saxophone. I like to play them in the original key, because that's how they are supposed to sound, and then I can collaborate more easily.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
9,958 Posts
Yeah, but what's "the original key"? What defines that? The first sheet music ever published? The key in which the most famous recording was made? The key in which your favorite artist recorded it, when they were 22 years old? How about the (lower) key in which the same favorite artist recorded it, 45 years later, when their voice made them pitch it a bunch lower? The key it shows up in your favorite fake book?

Most standards started out as either Broadway tunes or popular songs, then got mutated into jazz.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
4,616 Posts
It will take time to gradually learn where the notes are on the c-melody since I'm more used to the other saxes.
Sounds like you're over thinking this. The fingerings on all saxes, including C-melody, are the same. There is no re-learning to be done. Just pick up any sax and play the tune in the appropriate key. If you've learned your scales, it's no problem. If you haven't learned your scales, then you need to go back and learn them. Once you know your scales, you'll find playing in different keys to be quite effortless.

I like to play them in the original key, because that's how they are supposed to sound
I don't think you should get hung up on that. Male and Female singers sing standards all the time in whatever key is in their range. Different arrangements are usually in different keys as well. Unless you have perfect pitch, how can you even tell if a song is in the original key or not just by listening to it? How do you know the version in your fake book is the original key?

You say songs are easier on alto and tenor, yet you've chosen to play C-melody. If the other horns are easier, why are you putting yourself through the apparent stress of playing a C-mel? What is it about this horn that is so compelling? I have one too, and it's fun to play occasionally, but I haven't forsaken all other horns because of it.

Try this, play a simple tune like Mary Had A Little Lamb in all keys. Then try another tune. This will improve your ears and get you accustomed to how different keys sound and feel.

EDIT: Looks like turf beat me to it. Bottom line, the "original key", whatever that is, is ambiguous, arbitrary and unimportant.
 

· Distinguished SOTW Member/Sax Historian
Joined
·
7,147 Posts
I think everyone ought to learn standards in 12 keys, but realistically, how many can do them in more than 6 or 7? Or even have to? 12 is theoretical as it includes C# (all sharps) and Cb major (all flats), which are just spellings of Db (5 flats) and B major (5 sharps). So that leaves us at 10 keys, and we can take away 3 or 4 more that aren't used much without written charts.

Anyway, that is what it is. The question is what keys are particularly awkward on the C melody.

- I find Ab major is that way, because Ab = G#, and the G# key is its own nexus of awkwardness on any sax. (The only really good way to get from Ab to Bb is the Bb-bis key, which demands special attention in every scale where it's needed.) Standards called in 4 flats include I'm Confessin', I Can't Give You Anything But Love, Rose Room/In A Mellotone, and many more.

- I once got badly balled up on C mel in a jam session where Stompin' at the Savoy (Db major) was called. I'd been playing that tune since who laid the rails, but on Bb or Eb horns, where it's in Eb or F. But in the grand scheme of things, who cares? It was the 90s, it was NY, it was a here-n-gone bar full of vodka-soaked Russians, and I'm sure no one knew but my buddies in the band. Besides, for every 4 standards called in Ab, maybe one is in Db...Robbins' Nest, Stuffy...but if they call Woodyn You, duck out the back.
 

· Banned
Joined
·
1,435 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
but it does matter what keys are traditional for a tune in jams and on gigs...especially if you find yourself caught up short on one of those tunes in that key...
Yes, which is why I want to learn tunes in the traditional key, but then also maybe transpose it to a more familiar key when playing alone with my own backing tracks. For example right now I'm working on There Will Never Be Another You. On alto this is in the key of C and it's easy to play that way. On C melody it's in Eb. I learned it in Eb but it's more familiar in C. So I made the backing track in C instead of Eb and am going to play it that way for now, just for fun.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
4,616 Posts
but it does matter what keys are traditional for a tune in jams and on gigs...especially if you find yourself caught up short on one of those tunes in that key...
Absolutely, which is the crux of the issue. Since getting a C-melody in addition to his alto and tenor, he now has to know every tune in at least 3 keys when he collaborates.

I'm still trying to get at how much he collaborates and on which horns and how much he just plays for fun at home, unaccompanied.

He could just sight read charts from his fake books in whatever key his instrument calls for, at least until he settles on one instrument.
 

· Banned
Joined
·
1,435 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Absolutely, which is the crux of the issue. Since getting a C-melody in addition to his alto and tenor, he now has to know every tune in at least 3 keys when he collaborates.

I'm still trying to get at how much he collaborates and on which horns and how much he just plays for fun at home, unaccompanied.

He could just sight read charts from his fake books in whatever key his instrument calls for, at least until he settles on one instrument.
I only play one saxophone. And right now playing sax with other musicians, as much as I would like to do that, is limited due to current societal conditions. But I like to make my own backing tracks on keyboard so I have fun playing along with them and recording it all together. Because I'm working alone I can do whatever I want, but I still think it's important to be able to play the tune in the standard key just in case a jam session opportunity arises. I don't mind learning the tune in a couple keys. That's how I feel about it now.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
4,616 Posts
I only play one saxophone. And right now playing sax with other musicians, as much as I would like to do that, is limited due to current societal conditions. But I like to make my own backing tracks on keyboard so I have fun playing along with them and recording it all together. Because I'm working alone I can do whatever I want, but I still think it's important to be able to play the tune in the standard key just in case a jam session opportunity arises. I don't mind learning the tune in a couple keys. That's how I feel about it now.
Gotcha. So getting back to your original question, have you made life difficult picking a C instrument and playing tunes in the original keys. Well, in an sense, yes. But learning tunes in other keys (original concert key) will really pay off in the long run in terms of technique and your ears.

Since you've switched to C-mel for sure and for the long term, may as well dig in and start learning those new keys. But a good foundation of having all your scales under your fingers will make things much easier. So keep practicing those scales as part of your daily routine. And try to learn them inside and out, starting from any note, doing arpeggios, altered chord tones, maj/min/dim/dominant, etc. One big advantage of having a C-mel is you can work out concepts on the keyboard and translate them directly to the horn without transposition.

For me, it doesn't matter what key a tune is in. If the intervals of the melody are in my brain and the scales are under my fingers, it's not too much trouble. I do have to rely on reading the chord changes in the new key if I don't already know the tune really well. Of course the goal would be to memorize all tunes by their chord structure (roman numerals and intervals rather than a particular key). As an amateur with a family and a day job, I've never been able to commit to that. But it's still a goal for when I retire.

I'll put one last thing out there. If your homemade backing tracks are recorded to MIDI files, then you could simply transpose those, and play the tunes in the familiar tenor or alto keys. I do this all the time in Band-In-A-Box. The advantage is you can keep playing for fun without too much stress. The disadvantage is you've only put off re-learning the "original" key for your future jam sessions.
 

· Distinguished SOTW Member
Joined
·
4,000 Posts
I only play one saxophone. And right now playing sax with other musicians, as much as I would like to do that, is limited due to current societal conditions. But I like to make my own backing tracks on keyboard so I have fun playing along with them and recording it all together. Because I'm working alone I can do whatever I want, but I still think it's important to be able to play the tune in the standard key just in case a jam session opportunity arises. I don't mind learning the tune in a couple keys. That's how I feel about it now.
Look at "Girl From Ipanema". It was originally recorded in G (!) but the Getz/Gilberto recording that became famous is in D♭, and whoever transcribed it for the Real Book put it in F, which is where it is typically played in North America. In Brazil, they expect D♭ and will not be pleased if you play it in F. Even Stevie Wonder changed the key he plays it in when he went there.

Another example is "On Green Dolphin Street", which is often recorded in the key of C, but the Real Book version is in E♭.

You probably should know "Straight, No Chaser" in both B♭ and F, but that's just the head (and it's not a hard tune). The solos are straight ahead 12-bar blues so no big deal there.

One of the nice things about having multiple key horns is that you DON'T have to know as many keys. Arrange with the rhythm section that any time the vocalist needs a higher key, you go up a minor third (grab your alto) and any time they need a lower key, go down a major second (grab the tenor). They may have to wander outside those rules in some cases, but every time they can follow them, you just solved your key problem.
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top