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Phil Barone vs JS Crescent Tenors

18K views 102 replies 30 participants last post by  saxcop 
#1 ·
Hi everyone,

I currently play a YTS-23 that I've had since forever. Recently I've been looking to upgrade to a more professional level horn without breaking the bank. There are two lines of budget horns that get good reviews and have caught my eye:

1. Phil Barone Vintage series
2. Just Saxes Crescent series

I find myself leaning more towards the Crescent since it's ~$1k cheaper, but wanted opinions for anyone who has tried either, or both, and whether the price difference between the two is justifiable.
 
#2 ·
You should read the comments from the owner of Just Saxes toward the end of this thread: https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showt...chance-buying-from-China-and-it-went-SO-well-! Make sure he still has Crescent tenors available before reaching a purchase decision.

The reason the Crescent is less expensive than the Barone is that it's built in China rather than Taiwan. You can decide if that means anything to you.
 
#7 ·
Oh wow, thanks for the link! Good info to know. Looks like that might narrow my choice a bit.

I have owned so many Barone tenors. I always have my vintage Conn 10m here for my vintage horn, and for my modern horn, my choice is the Barone.

I have had both the Classic and the Vintage models, and they are both really enjoyable. I enjoy the ergonomics and the sound. I have been pushing these for a long time because I feel they are a fantastic bargain and they play incredibly well compared to anything, not just based on their price.

Every year I pick one up in a different finish and than I have already had, so I can compare and see which I like the best. It's a fun process, and not an expensive one. You can always sell these for pretty much what you buy them for if you buy them used.

Excellent playing and sounding horns.
Thanks for the input! Glad you popped in since my main piece is an HR Robusto (absolutely love it, btw). I'd be interesting in hearing your thoughts on which of the Barone horns you think would pair better with it. Classic or Vintage?
 
#17 ·
That student was me! Yes, The Barone is better in every way. I do not recommend buying a crescent, Palo is awesome and was putting a lot of work into setting up these Chinese horns, they do not hold regulation and the quality just isn't there.
Edit: this was 2011 or 2012. I know the PB horns are still of high quality and excellent bang for your buck, but haven't heard about crescents lately.
 
#4 ·
I just went through the process of evaluating a new Barone tenor vs several other mostly used professional saxes, and the Barone won out hands down. I received it last week and have played it on a couple of gigs, and it plays equal to and in some respects better than my Mark VI and Yami 82Z. Check out the many positive reviews on SOTW, and then get the Barone. You won't regret it.
 
#6 ·
I have owned so many Barone tenors. I always have my vintage Conn 10m here for my vintage horn, and for my modern horn, my choice is the Barone.

I have had both the Classic and the Vintage models, and they are both really enjoyable. I enjoy the ergonomics and the sound. I have been pushing these for a long time because I feel they are a fantastic bargain and they play incredibly well compared to anything, not just based on their price.

Every year I pick one up in a different finish than I have already had, so I can compare and see which I like the best. It’s a fun process, and not an expensive one. You can always sell these for pretty much what you buy them for if you buy them used.

Excellent playing and sounding horns.



I haven't owned any of Palo's horns, but I know he is passionate about everything he does, and I bet they are also very good horns.
 
#10 ·
While I haven't had a Barone, I've had several Taiwan tenors to compare to a gold plated Crescent with both necks and setup by Palo.

Having discussed this with Palo, I think it is safe to say that the all over build quality is better in Taiwan but that the Crescent is really pretty good. I could only find one slight solder gap on one of the posts although I didn't disassemble it. The main difference, as I recall, are the pads, corks etc. which could be the deciding factor for the OP.

A couple of local pros play-tested the Crescent against Mark 6s and a SA80. The younger player immediately liked the tone as being brighter and more aggressive than his SA. It is a Yani 9xx design copy.

But there's another perspective. The Barone is twice the price. If you bought both new and decided to upgrade in a few years, you'd lose 50% +/-. On the Barone, that's a thousand bucks. Enough to pay for the Crescent.

But with the number of used modern saxes on the market, you shouldn't get locked into a brand name. You just want one that's put together right. Buffet 400 was my fav although made in China but the Jupiter 889 with the Sterling neck is a great horn and of course, who can resist a nice Viking!

Good luck.
 
#91 ·
If you want a Chinese-quality horn instead of Taiwanese, get a Cecilio set up well and save a few hundred.
Even if a tech sets up a Cecilio really well...it will NOT stay that way for long. :confused:

....Cecilio over a Crescent to save a few hundred bucks ????? You'd be shooting yourself in the foot.

IMHO if one wants a good chinese made horn, find a Buffet 100 or 400.

The used Crescent is worth $400-500. The used Barone is worth about $1100. This is assuming both are in great condition. Occasionally you might see a Barone sell for 1300. However they will sit here in the marketplace a long time. I've seen these two horns recommended so many times on this forum. I really don't get it. I guess if you have to buy a New horn, and like to loose half your money the moment you take delivery.
True, neither sell fast nor for decent market value on the used market....which is again, why, when folks have a limited budget it is recommended to go used....

BTW, I know this thread is old, but....a New Barone is currently around $2500...a new Crescent is around $900.

I am certain someone in this 5-pager has already mentioned this...but.....??????....I am puzzled as to why OP would have landed ona choice of these two....is it even fair to make an apples-to-apples comparison here ?

I understand that pricetags are certainly not the top yardstick...but would YOU expect a new $900 horn to out-perform a $2500 one ???

Would you expect a new $400 horn to outperform a new $900 one ???
 
#12 ·
I agree with what StuatSax has said here. I think the Jupiter 889 maybe the most under rated horn out there. However they can only be found used. If you are looking at new prices the Crescent and the Barone are not really comparable as the Barone is nearly double in price. I have had a bunch of Taiwan made horns and also owned a Crescent. The Taiwan horns are better made period. However I have never owned a Barone. Only a neck. One thing that I question is where the Barone is made. In my experience Taiwan horns are always stamped so. However I have never seen this on a Barone. I have looked at many that have come up for sale. Also in my experience these non stamped, Taiwan origin horns, are really made in Vietnam. Now I have a Vietnam made horn and its great.
The Crescent may be designed after a Yani, but thats all I would say about that. Its nothing like a Yani. I have two Yani tenors. I also have my doubts about if the gold plate is really gold. I have my doubts about self promoters that claim this or that and claim to have some secret bag of tricks that other techs don't know. Both are good horns. Personally I would buy a used 889. It will smoke the Crescent and you still paid a grand less than the Barone and get a solid silver neck.
 
#28 ·
My horns are made in Taiwan and are quality controlled by the same guy that does the Selmer horns. They're top notch and whatever you do stay away from Chinese horns, they'll fall apart in a year or two. I could have gotten my horns from China and saved a ton of money but after inspecting a few I went with Taiwan and a great factory. The horns made in Vietnam are good but not as good as the Taiwanese horns. Phil Barone
 
#13 ·
+1 for the Jupiter 889..... way underrated and can be had used for under $1k. Well built with an even sound and excellent intonation. One thing I’ve noticed about the ergos is that the key layout seems to be made for smaller hands ..... not good or bad but worth mentioning.

Still, in the sound department I think the Barone is the clear winner .... I’ve only tried a Vintage model so can’t speak to how the Classic compares.
 
#14 ·
saxcop;3626698. The Taiwan horns are better made period. However I have never owned a Barone. Only a neck. One thing that I question is where the Barone is made. In my experience Taiwan horns are always stamped so. However I have never seen this on a Barone. I have looked at many that have come up for sale. Also in my experience these non stamped said:
Very few of the Monique's that were from Taiwan were stamped, and none of the Cannonballs I've owned were. Of course, when they were first imported into the US most Americans thought all Asian saxes were junk and could not be told differently. So they didn't exactly shout the country of origin from the rooftops; funny how things turn around.

There are actually some decent instruments coming in now from all parts of Asia. You're smart to be skeptical, though. Why pay what is now a premium for something you think was well-made and in a high labor cost country only to learn it's not. The importers should openly declare their sources.

And FWIW, it is a Barone Classic up for sale and it is at 1200 AUD (taking fish oil capsules must be working). Probably have to figure well over $300 to get it here; kinda kills it's being any deal. Price confirms what another member said, about figuring a resale at 50%.
 
#15 ·
I agree with you extradarcafe. I played a Monique alto for 10 years. It was a decent horn and unmarked. Cannon Ball has always been in the business of trying to confuse the buyer on the country of origin. Good horns though. However the modern Taiwan horn is proudly advertised and I am skeptical when they are not stamped so. If you look at the engraving on a Barone, it really doesn't match up with other Taiwan horns. The engraving on my new LA Sax is nearly as nice as my solid silver Yani 9937. When I see simple engraving on the Barone, and that it matches the style of chinese horns, I am skeptical of where its made.
 
#16 ·
** Not much to do with Barone and Crescent, but: ***

Your skepticism about the Barone has me wondering about my LA Sax tenor, and a Unison S400 now. I never paid it much thought and looked at both today. Neither are marked as to origin, but I always took both to be Taiwan saxes. The LA Sax has no decorative engraving except on the bell cups, and on the Unison it's sparse (suits my taste). I plan to sell both eventually, now that I'm nearing 1,000 years old, and don't want to state unequivocally that they're from Taiwan if it may not be the case. Still, back in 2006 when the Unison was made I don't think the mainland was yet sending us consistent quality. (They were being hit up by US importers for low-priced instruments for the most part.)

The LA Sax is the LAX-308, later engraved "Big Lip." Fortunately, that's not written on this one. It's a plain-Jane clear lacquered thing. Maybe I should get "Fat Lip" engraved on it and see if anyone notices?
 
#19 ·
If so PB horns have some of the poorest engravings of all Taiwan horns. It is highly unlikely that factory only makes his horns. Where are the others produced by that company? I think the style of this engravings, post shapes, key shapes, are clues that you can use to make some reasonable assumptions. I am not knocking PB horns. I am not a believer that they are 100% Taiwan made.

The latest LA sax is a nice horn. It is stamped Taiwan. I agree with you that the past LA horns were sourced from different places.
 
#20 ·
They were made in the same place as P Mauriat for a bit, then TK Melody and some of the other better Taiwan makes. There's always been the rumor that the alto and tenor vintage model body tubes are almost identical to the Cannonball Big Bell Stone Series. Give Phil a call, he knows where he gets his horns. I love the tenor I have now, but regret selling the vintage model tenor he sold me...the bari as well. Oh yeah, I once had a Barone classic alto with a TK Melody brace on it, bought from and sold to someone on this forum.
 
#25 ·
Interesting what you said about the bell moving. That was the problem when I received mine. It was easy enough for me to fix. I sold it to a guy that still has it some 3+ years later and doesn't have a problem. I didn't see any other problems with the Cresent.

So since discussing the Barone in this thread I have gone and looked at them. The engraving is much improved and the prices are really good for new horns. I do happen to believe that some of the past horns were same as the Allora Paris series. I had one of those and thought it was very nice. That horn was also identical to the Kessler Custom. I am talking about the one I played in 2014. They have changed some in appearance since that time. However I was confident that horn I saw was made in Vietnam.
 
#27 ·
Just want to add my voice to the Barone-chorus here. I bought a Barone Classic tenor 5 or 6 years ago, with the thought that it would be a usable backup to my Mark VI (100xxx serial #). I soon learned that it could **_replace_** my Mark VI if need be. The only issue I have with it is mechanical - because the ribs are larger, there is some extra stuff here and there, and a high F# key, the horn is slightly heavier. Also, the high F# key touch was an issue for me because I played rather flat-fingered on the RH on my Mark VI; on the Barone, this can cause me to accidentally crack open the high F# key. I had to learn a (better!) finger/hand position to avoid it; took about a week of playing to straighten that out.

Tonewise, the horns are very similar - Selmer has its strong core, so tonally a bit more expressive, but the Barone is more in tune, and the palm keys are much more balanced tone-wise. High G (the gateway to the altissimo...) is very easy on the Barone, but a struggle on my Mark VI.

So I bought a $1500 backup to a $6K Selmer, and found an equal in every way. You won't go wrong with a Barone.
 
#30 ·
I've had a black Barone tenor for several years. I bought it as a backup for my Martin Music Man. Then it became my main horn as I was reluctant to take the Martin to bar gigs and such. It's tone is not as good as the Martin – it's less complex, less character, I don't know the best words to describe it – but it's loud, clear, and bright which is what I need for playing loud blues/rock. It's a good quality horn that's held up well. I went back to playing the Martin when I realized that life is getting shorter and why not play the horn that I love? Also, other horn players have commented on the Martin's tone. A friend played the Barone and the Martin and instantly recognized the Martin as the better, fuller, richer tone. That said though, the Barone is a good horn. And people say it's very purty. :)

The thing about Phil Barone is that you can call him and talk to him. That's always a big plus in my book. He may have a New York opinionated, aggressive style, but if you can go with that, you have the benefit of talking directly with the person who's sourcing and selling his own line of saxes. Also, he has a return policy. At least he used to, don't know if he still does. But as you can see below, he's here on SOTW and you can ask him about that or anything else. I recommend talking to him. Why not? You might get a horn that suits you better, maybe a better deal. Talk to the man about his horns. How can you lose?
 
#31 ·
Just seeing this now.... Have food poisoning, and am pretty much brain-dead at the moment, but will revisit this to say more later.

Some basic, quick points:

- ROC construction is better than PRC, objectively (will say more about this later)

- The original Crescent tenors and altos are discontinued, as I detailed in the thread that was linked above.

- Re bells, swperry1 ? I don?t remember if we discussed this, but I hope we did. I always want to know when things go wrong. After initial receipt on sales, I usually didn?t hear back again from any one; I wish I had heard back more because problems come up on all kinds of purchases, of any brand, and I figure I did not hear back because the problems were addressed without contacting me, not because no problems came up. I always want to know when something goes wrong (not directed at you, swperry1, but rather at others who may not have contacted me, and to future customers).

- The Crescent altos and sopranos were/are very much like Yanagisawas, and are compatible with Yanagisawa necks. The tenor is not. The tenor is compatible with Selmer and ROC (e.g. P. Mauriat) necks. Saxcop, you had a tenor, I believe.

- I don?t think the Crescent tenors would be anybody?s ideal tenor, out of what is out there over the course of saxophone history. But I also don?t think any SA80s likely would be either. For many players the ?holy grail? will be a great SBA, for others a great VI. I think I know where Phil?s tenors are made (no offense Phil, and I could be wrong about this), and if it?s the place I think then they are capable of being on a level with anything else being made today, but perhaps not with the original neck (Phil, I?m guessing you have done some work, neckwise, to improve your product over what the factory likely originally sent you). The function of the Crescent line was primarily value. Before the improvement in PRC saxo manufacturing, there wasn?t anything available, vintage or new, that I could recommend at under $900, based on prevailing market values. I felt very good about selling the Crescents at that price, i.e. that the value was exceptional. Most players won?t know what their ?holy grail? is until they have decent chops and have played a good array of saxophones. The Crescent?s ideal purpose was to stand-in, and enable a player to develop those chops and gain that experience, ?until the real thing comes along? and one is able to know what it is. For any dedicated player, anything you buy that is not your ideal horn is probably going to end up being resold.

OK?that?s more than I thought I had in me at the moment. Just woke from 14 hours in bed, still brain-dead from food poisoning that hit yesterday eve. I?ll say more later.

One more comment re ROC makes: I play a rescued SBA tenor with a Schucht neck at home, and a P. Mauriat with a Schucht neck at work. The P. Mauriat combo is just about identical in performance to my own JS Custom tenor (not yet released) and probably very similar to Phil?s tenor (if you put a Schucht neck on his tenor). I?ll probably switch over to JSC/Schucht at work, and sell the P. Mauriat, they are that similar ? but I also mention this by way of adding some detail to my last comments above. If I couldn?t have an SBA that I love, I?d probably stick with an ROC tenor with a Schucht neck, until I could find an SBA that I love more.

Also, these comments aren?t any kind of marketing ploy (I think some will suspect that, because that is how a lot of people on the board think) ? I?m not ditching PRC makes altogether. I?m dropping the factory that was making the original Crescent line for altos & tenors because their products have deteriorated, but if I can find replacements good enough to put my name behind I will still offer them, so long as I can make the wage I need to make for the work I do on them & related to them.

To return to the OP, though, putting all else aside except for the question asked, if I did not have any choice between a (pre-discontinuation) Crescent and a Phil Barone tenor (and I'm making an educated guess as to what Phil's tenor is like -- I don't remember having one ever come in), and price was not a consideration, I absolutely would take the Barone. I don't know what Phil's pricing is, so I can't really say what I personally would do if price were considered. Also, what I know about neck options that are likely available for Phil's tenor makes that a more attractive option, as well -- these same neck options are also are compatible with the Crescent tenor, but they do not play as well on the Crescent as on P. Mauriat or my own JSC (the ROC make I'm the most familiar with, firsthand).
 
#33 ·
Food poisoning on the run, at last. Having first cup of coffee since Thursday. Heaven.

I didn't notice initially when I posted that this thread was already kind of dead (covered). In the interest of adding content to it, I'll try to offer some insight that may or may not have been covered on the board in the past -- and content more specific to the OP as a general question, than to sort of stay in my brand-owner lane: PRC vs ROC.

I am not up to speed on Vietnam, at all, so that is beyond my ability to include in this discuss, though it very well play a role without my knowing it (if I don't know what Vietnam's role is, I don't know whether they are playing a role in my own products, without my knowing it).

I'll just start with a pretty small but relevant topical area, and continue only if further thread development shows I'm not hijacking the OP, in which case I'll go back to posting as a brand owner (I would like to think that actually I don't ever do that in a "normal" way).

Major points:

1) PRC manufacturing is not technically on the level of ROC manufacturing but
2) In optimal playing condition, if you only went by how the horn feels to play, you would never know this, per se -- you would only know if you feel the horn is playing well or as you would like it to, or not -- but
3) You *might* suspect it (that the manufacturing is somehow different in character) through an act of intuition if you were to extrapolate (exactly correct word) from some idiosyncracies of how the horns play (not badly, just not completely in line with tradition), that the manufacturing and design might be similarly non-traditional.
4) The differences as experienced purely by playing are real and can be broken down into a) ergos, b) intonation, c) balance of scale (how different registers of the horn relate/voice relative to each other and relative to other "golden rulers" in the history of saxophones) d) "response" (quotes because this term seems to mean different things to different people -- I mean roughly "attack speed, sustain/resonance, nimbleness or sluggishness," etc.).

Some of these points are more objective in nature, i.e. one can argue pretty objectively that one method of manufacturing and execution is superior to another and qualify and quantify those args such that the conclusion is valid sort of a priori (by definition).

OTOH, playing qualities are more subjective, and what is terrible to one person might be exactly what another person likes. For example, very few accomplished players, price taken out of the equation, would choose to play a YTS-23 if they had free access to everything else available in the market, and imo that is not a function of brand snobbery, i.e. great players choose based purely on how they feel playing an instrument -- they only care about the ability to think well and clearly, feel deeply, and execute what they think and feel with the least intrusion possible -- or even with a type of vessel-interloping inspiration -- which is what makes them great players. Yet some virtuoso, tasteful artists do choose YTS-23's, seemingly not out of dire financial lack of other options.

I meant to actually address in full the topics in the outline I made above, but something just came up, as I'm writing. I'll come back to this. It may take me more than an hour to type out.
 
#34 ·
Re Taiwan and "suspicions" -- and maybe this will end up getting addressed later in this thread -- often dealers and brand owners, if they have not actually travelled to Taiwan to visit the factory they're hiring, are dealing with either an agent who acts as though they're a factory owner, but actually are only intermediaries. They may not even be aware of this, having never considered the possibility. This, I would guess, is the norm, rather than the exception.

I suspect that I purchase both PRC and ROC makes from an intermediary, not a factory, but I don't mind because if anything this is helping to add a layer of versatility in my purchasing and a layer of QC -- especially when it comes to the ROC company, which is not as good in CS in some ways as the PRC company, but is better in most of the ways that really matter to American purchasers buying by airmail or sea.

But the only way for the brand owner (OEM buyer) to know for sure that her/his product comes from the place the stickers on the products say they come from is to go to the factory and see one's order being executed.

All I know is whether I approve of the product when it's in my hands, and how to identify from the horn itself likely siblings and relatives. This is easier than you might think, but also harder than a lot of people seem to assume.

You guys who care about this topic for whatever reason should really kiss Milandro's bootay on this topic as he knows a great deal about it -- more than me and more than many dealers, I suspect, who are putting product out there. (I hope you are complimented by my saying this, Milandro, rather than feeling thrown under the bus and subjected to unwanted attention.)

There are also a lot of self-appointed board experts who spread misinformation not even caring that they're doing it.
 
#53 ·
Re Taiwan and "suspicions" -- and maybe this will end up getting addressed later in this thread -- often dealers and brand owners, if they have not actually travelled to Taiwan to visit the factory they're hiring, are dealing with either an agent who acts as though they're a factory owner, but actually are only intermediaries. They may not even be aware of this, having never considered the possibility. This, I would guess, is the norm, rather than the exception.
I am unsure if this is still true, but I know it was true of many products manufactured in PRC and ROC six years years ago and before (when I lived in PRC). Many Taiwanese products were/are shipped into the Hong Kong port where they are distributed from Shenzhen (in Guangdong province) which is some sort of a free trade zone or special administrative zone, or they are shipped from Guangdong (a huge, mostly beautiful city) and distributed throughout the mainland (and the world) from some sort of special administrative zone.

AFAIK, China's government discourages labeling imported Taiwanese products as Taiwanese for political reasons that I won't discuss here. I do know, however, that retail sellers often know (or claim to know) the provenance of their products. The brokers and other intermediaries are certainly in a position to know but may not be truthful about where the product was made if they're dealing with western buyers. I haven't given much thought to saxophone manufacture in several years, but I can tell you that the mainlanders themselves avoid PRC made products when they can, preferring products from Japan (for whom they still hold great animosity) and products from South Korea.

When I lived in Yangzhou, I met the dean of the music department at Yangzhou U. He was a saxophonist ( a very rare animal in PRC). He told me that he believed that saxophone parts such as keys are made on the mainland because of the lower air quality control standards. Smelting and casting is a very dirty business. That may have changed because the PRC has tried to keep its word about controlling its carbon footprint, and it may have changed because of recent embargoes.

Caveat: this is dated information. ptung may have more recent info on this.
 
#35 ·
1st: Phil, I don't think I'm going to end up discussing your horns any/much further than I already have, but please do not hesitate to jump in if you feel anything I've written isn't accurate, or needs to be corrected, or of course if you have anything to add. I won't take offense, there is no possibility of a "flame war" between you and me, at least I can't see it happening.

2nd: I would suggest the overarching comparison request between Phil's tenors and Crescent I tenors is between PRC and ROC manufacturing, taking out the roles of Phil and myself post-manufacturing.

As much as possible, I'm going to completely leave out any discussion of my role, as far as post-manufacturing, unless asked to comment further on it. Past discussions have sort of shown me it's pointless to comment on that, except to answer various forms of confirmation bias on others' parts that involve either direct or passive-aggressive attacks directed at me.

That said, just going to cover this today: "1) PRC manufacturing is not technically on the level of ROC manufacturing "

I think in a way this is probably new content for this board, because I'm a dealer and (reasonably literate) tech who is very intimate with both a PRC line and an ROC line, namely my own, and I'm going to say some things other people wouldn't know, or wouldn't have ruminated on as long and often as I have, with validations or corrections from the horns themselves over years. Also, some of it will be more detailed explanations that sort of demystify or complicate/simplify ambiguities in past discussions of various aspects of related board discussions in the past.

What PRC (mainland China) manufacturing is like:

- "opportunistic" -- I have used this term often in my own private correspondence, so I have probably used it on this board at some point(s) as well. What is meant by that: "more dependent on the assembly person's actions, or idiosyncratic assembly practices than completely or maximally automated, emphasis on human labor in the manufacturing process, rather than on precision tooling" -- something like that. This gets into the precision and "tolerances" of the manufacturing and design, but that may end up being a separate topic in my comments. The most basic explanation is that when tolerances are less precise -- for example when the machined fit of a rodscrew to a keytube is less precise, or when the length of keytubes is less precisely automated, a human has to "take up the slack." On PRC horns, or at least all the ones I have seen, and I chose my line based on its being the one whose correction-requirements were acceptable to me, there is a lot of work for humans to do. Because the tolerances are relatively sloppy compared to the best modern makes -- some of whose brands were themselves not as precise in tolerances 15 years ago as they are today -- there is a greater human labor role in the manufacturing and assembly of PRC horns than ROC. This plays out in various ways in the final product. Some of you who have PRC-made horns may look at your springs, for example, and may or may not find some odd/kooky-looking bends in them, that may or may not make sense to you-

[Shoot...I have to stop here for now, but will continue later from exactly where I'm leaving off.]
 
#36 ·
Interesting. So are the ROC facilities more modern?


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