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I'm just gonna leave this here. It's Jay Corre and the gold plated Crescent. Later that day James Archer stopped by and had an equally big grin. He is part of the CEWinds group which subsequently marketed what was the same design, looking like the Yanagisawa 99x.
The sax sold later that year to a jr high student and was fully approved by the finicky arse band teacher who previously only allowed Selmer etc. It came back to me for one adjustment and that was it. It looked like it was going to hold up fine but for the pads and corks with upgrades available before being sent out.
Palo put out a nice horn for $900.
Jay Corre was one of my early sax heroes. My older brother is a drummer and that Buddy Rich album he did was playing all the time at my house. Really great to see he is still going.
 

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Brasscane,

Nations and their regions develop reputations based upon their actions, same as individuals. If I said I don't like or buy German products because they're over-engineered and thus needlessly expensive, it would be my opinion based upon personal experience. If an importer buys a Chinese saxophone, likes it enough to place a larger order, then receives lesser quality ones without explanation, as not one but two importers have explained, why should he not identify poor quality with its source?

That the manufacturers in certain countries are allowed to continue business practices that damage their customers without recourse, what is wrong with members pointing that out and warning others? And I do understand your concern over generalizations, and share your opinion about SOTW members denegrating Chinese saxes.

Where I differ is that the postings I object to are from members who have never owned nor even played one saying that they're all junk, no matter their price point and no matter the intended purpose. That is not the case here. Both importers are experienced buyers of the product, and both offered initial praise until they were burned. And does a buyer have to get burned multiple times to make a decision? I think not. Here we have two separate cases on point.
 

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Jay Corre was one of my early sax heroes. My older brother is a drummer and that Buddy Rich album he did was playing all the time at my house. Really great to see he is still going.
Sorry to note that Jay passed away about 4 years ago. He was going strong until the end.

You might enjoy seeing Jay on videos with Dick Cully's band either on YouTube or find Dick on Facebook. He's always posting stuff from that band.
 

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[EDIT: quote removed to avoid misinterpretation my meaning below - subsequent posts discussing that have been removed as no longer relevant. My apologies for the confusion]

I've spoken to several importers and noticed that there is some ambiguity when generalisations are made about source or country of origin. If it was me, and I have dabbled with investigating the importation of saxophones, I would identify the poor quality with the specific factory and that factory management, not the country the factory is located in (or the race of people who live/work in that country -but we need to be careful not to turn this into a racial discussion of course). I think the problem may be people often do not realise the sheer size of the country, the size of the population and the huge number of factories in China (PRC)

Brasscane,

Nations and their regions develop reputations based upon their actions, same as individuals.
The problem is people often get stuck on the outdated reputations. Made in Japan used to imply shoddy workmanship, it's probable IMO that Made in China is the New Made in Japan.

I know plenty of people who have tried a couple of Chinese saxophones a few years ago and thought "all Chinese saxophones a crap." We see that on here all the time. Those who have bothered trying 20, 100 or more would know that there are some real gems from China, so may either not generalise at all, or be more realistic.
 

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Why does no one ever identify the good or bad Chinese factories? Does no one know?

I guess I’d like to see a review saying “This horn is Chinese and made in the xxx factory. This horn is great/sucks.”


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Why does no one ever identify the good or bad Chinese factories? Does no one know?

I guess I’d like to see a review saying “This horn is Chinese and made in the xxx factory. This horn is great/sucks.”
Possibly because the reviewer doesn't know.

Then again, factory means little because you can buy different quality instruments from the same factory. So it would actually be misleading if people equated on factored with a particular level of QC.

I know a couple of very top level Chinese instruments and the factory the come from (as part of my research), but I think the same factory tis also supplying lower level instruments.

A few years back I was inundated with requests from a particular Taiwanese manufacturing agency who could sell me saxophones that were the same as P.Mauriat, from the same factory (at a price that would people here would probably not believe). Further research showed me that although the were OK horns and some looked the same, they weren't as good as actual P.Mauriats, not mention that they could not offer the whole line. Since then as far as I know P.Mauriat started their own manufacturing anyway.

I can understand people wanting to know the name of the factory, as if they can get a Mauriat or a Cannonball or any of the reputable brands sourced from Chinese factories lower than of the branded retail price, but those branding companies will protect their hard earned reputation, so it's unlikely you'll ever get that exact super bargain along with the customer support and return policy you would get with a domestic brand such as Crescent (whose markup would include a lot of setting up and after import QC anyway)

I'm sure there are also other companies adding big markups without the QC and setting up - beware the drop shipping companies who are basically just agenting but giving you little guarantee.
 

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Surely nobody would think that if if Selmer moved their Paris factory and staff to China, the instruments would suddenly be worse due to the geographical location?
Selmer can change an air conditioner filter in their factory and people would think the quality of the horns would be better/worse. It’s ridiculous how some people think. It’s like saxophones are made from uru metal by magic dwarves or something.



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Haha. So. They change the filter. The sax quality changes. Obviously.

Here comes the best part ...

Anyone who does not notice the change is just a lousy player.

So there!


Save your pitchforks and boiling oil ... for somebody who actually believes!
 

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Haha. So. They change the filter. The sax quality changes. Obviously.

Here comes the best part ...

Anyone who does not notice the change is just a lousy player.

So there!


Save your pitchforks and boiling oil ... for somebody who actually believes!
LOL. I wish I could post my gif of the elves forging swords from Lord Of The Rings


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If it was me, and I have dabbled with investigating the importation of saxophones, I would identify the poor quality with the specific factory, not the country the factory is located in or the race of people who live/work in that country. I think the problem may be people often do not realise the sheer size of the country, the size of the population and the huge number of factories in that country.



The problem is people often get stuck on the outdated reputations. Made in Japan used to imply shoddy workmanship, it's probable IMO that Made in China is the New Made in Japan.

I know plenty of people who have tried a couple of Chinese saxophones a few years ago and thought "all Chinese saxophones a crap." We see that on here all the time. Those who have bothered trying 20, 100 or more would know that there are some real gems from China, so may either not generalise at all, or be more realistic.
There's no time to go to China to investigate twenty factories, you can go to a show and see some but not all the factories are there. Also, upon looking at them, they look fine but then they fall apart. Maybe you had luck with a couple of horns Pete but try buying a hundred horns and see what happens and let me tell you, they won't take them back. Business is ruthless. For now, they are crap. Phil Barone
 

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Possibly because the reviewer doesn't know.

Then again, factory means little because you can buy different quality instruments from the same factory. So it would actually be misleading if people equated on factored with a particular level of QC.

I know a couple of very top level Chinese instruments and the factory the come from (as part of my research), but I think the same factory tis also supplying lower level instruments.

A few years back I was inundated with requests from a particular Taiwanese manufacturing agency who could sell me saxophones that were the same as P.Mauriat, from the same factory (at a price that would people here would probably not believe). Further research showed me that although the were OK horns and some looked the same, they weren't as good as actual P.Mauriats, not mention that they could not offer the whole line. Since then as far as I know P.Mauriat started their own manufacturing anyway.

I can understand people wanting to know the name of the factory, as if they can get a Mauriat or a Cannonball or any of the reputable brands sourced from Chinese factories lower than of the branded retail price, but those branding companies will protect their hard earned reputation, so it's unlikely you'll ever get that exact super bargain along with the customer support and return policy you would get with a domestic brand such as Crescent (whose markup would include a lot of setting up and after import QC anyway)

I'm sure there are also other companies adding big markups without the QC and setting up - beware the drop shipping companies who are basically just agenting but giving you little guarantee.
P. Mauriat own their own factory, maybe but they also make horns for other makes as Cadeson. The Cadeson 902 tenor is a 66r , I have played both and owned both.

Back to Chinese horns, the RS Berkeley Virtuoso are made in China I've heard? They are pro horns.
 

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P. Mauriat own their own factory, maybe but they also make horns for other makes as Cadeson. The Cadeson 902 tenor is a 66r , I have played both and owned both.

Back to Chinese horns, the RS Berkeley Virtuoso are made in China I've heard? They are pro horns.
I think so. Those are really weird horns though. If you look on the website at the various finishes, they all seem to have different keywork. There have also been several generations of those horns.

I know for sure that at least one of the ones I’ve seen had to have been made in mainland China, but I’m not sure about current production. I know that the Berkeley sopranino is made in Taiwan. It’s the same as the Allora/Jean Baptiste/Mauriat model and there is only one factory that puts out a nino that is a full copy of an SA80.




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For now, they are crap.
The Crescents are anything but and sold by a stellar sax tech who goes extra miles for his customers; moreover someone with class to boot and without need to deprecate competitors to forward self-interest. A great example to learn from. Cheers.
 

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Listen to Pete Thomas play his Bauhaus saxes: They likely hold up to more hours of playing time than the vast majority of amateurs and weekend warriors on SOTW put into their instruments.
Just fro the record I only have a bauhaus baritone now. I did have a soprano and sold that when I found something I had been after for a while (Buescher Truetone) however I do regret selling that bauhaus. In fact I "upgraded" the Chinese bauhaus to a Taiwanese Bauhaus, and in most respects in hindsight I think the Chinese one was better.

My baritone has been with me for over 8 years now, done hundreds of sessions and has not been in for a service or repairs and still blowing strong. I've done a couple of tours in that time and due to logistics I was given a Yanagisawa and Selmer to play, but they didn't really play any better.


The other bauhaus I had briefly was the tenor which I borrowed to do the Five Tenor Shootout.

Granted I think any importer of Chinese instruments may have to invest in a domestic QC and setup, as Palo Tung has indicated re: the Crescents. But that is also something any distributor or retailer should be doing especially in the case of largely handmade instruments.
 

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$1124 USD. Good price if truly a pro horn. Did not see a tenor version though.
Well, they are advertised as entry level, though a cut above most other entry level instruments and as Karel is a top technician, you know it will be set up and QC'd.
 

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This is my first post.
As a saxophones supplier/trader in Taiwan for many years, I know the most important thing to manufacture good saxophones is technicians/assemblers' attitude, and, this is what makes big differences between Taiwan and China horns.
We can say that the technology in Taiwan had overcame by China in the pasted 10 years, however, technology is never the most important part for a good saxophone.
Almost all the manufacturing procedures of a saxophone are hand-made, from the bell hammering, soldering, silver soldering, pulling tone holes, (rolling tone holes), polishing, plating, lacquering, installing pads, installing needle springs, installing cork and felt to assembling, adjusting, testing, etcs. In Taiwan, we need 6 months of training to be a qualified assembler.
Almost every manufacturing procedure has professional satellite factories standing behind. In Taiwan, the saxophone industry have been here more than 65 years and all the remaining satellite factories are the best. The satellite factories are focusing in doing their own job(one thing) well, this is the correct attitude.
With them above, we made the real professional and rigid saxophones. You might not aware of the differences from the beginning year of playing, most of the China horns are duplicating of Taiwan ones, but things will be huge different after certain mileage of playing. If one ever play China horn hard with lots of mileage will know what I mean.
We know we are facing big competition from China with lower prices and big production capacity, however, we just don't have that big factory and can not lower our labors cost. What we can do is holding our good quality and keeping improving our horns to be steps ahead. Thanks feedback from professional players worldwide, we are keeping improving.
You might need to wait months for a Taiwan horn and we are sorry that we just can not go faster. Quality is our first priority and the factories are always crowded whole year in Taiwan.
This is not an AD but just what I have see in my business. I apology if it makes you feel like that.
~English is not my native language and I apologize if you feel it suck~~
 

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Discussion Starter · #79 ·
Wow, I'm pretty surprised to see this thread is still kickin'.

For anyone curious, I ended up buying a barone classic. I'm quite pleased with my purchase.
 

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Maybe the question is something like this:

If you sourced a manufacturer in Europe (to keep it general), would you have a high/med/low level of concern with bait and switch style production, or degrading quality of product, versus the ones you looked at as "samples? Now ask that question for mainland China.

If we have to tip toe around every little phrase, and not understand that we are not degrading a people or nation but an industry in a country when we say "Chinese horns", and its generally well-demonstrated variability in production and quality (for whatever reason or rationale), than we should just give up trying to communicate via writing.

I had a Chinese Venus Soprano. It was what it was worth/what I paid for it, more or less. But I wouldn't buy one again, in the absence of new 'data'; I just didn't have confidence in it. Everything was just too flakey/shakey and it spoke inconsistently in various ranges.

Call it romantic or sentimental, or environmental...there are 1,000s of horns out there, that after some work or restoration, will play and sound better and last longer than most Chinese products. MOST, not all, especially as of late. You can get a Bundy-modern Conn in good shape for 150-500., maybe spend low $ on it to tweak it, and it will last forever.

Someone knowledgeable, and biased but not crazy, said that most of these horns have low quality pads/felts, other materials and will need major work in two years of regular playing. They play fine out of the box, mostly, but then where are you then after dropping 100s on an overhaul in a couple of years? IF this is true, and I don't know it to be so, that would be the biggest distinguishing factor in this discussion because it cuts across "good/bad sound quality" issues. Its just economics.
 
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