[DryMartini]

One thing I notice about pro jazz musicians is their ability to keep playing and playing and playing and playing and just keep going with really long lines.

I'm getting bettter and saying more but this generally is and area I am curious about how to improve on.

I was thinking it probalby has something to do with really shedding modes, stacks, triads, enclosuers, licks and pivots and putting them all together.

Do you guys think sheddding modes is a big part of improving 'perpetual' style playing?

Would love to hear how you increased your ability to play and just keep going.

 

[notes_norton]

I think it's building a 'vocabulary' (for lack of a better word) of licks.

Personally I do all my "thinking" while practicing, and when I'm gigging the notes just flow out of me as if they are flowing through me instead of from me.

But it wasn't that way when I started. Decades later it just happens.

If you have a vocabulary of a many different things that work in say a ii V7 I progression, and you've become familiar with the tune during your practice (thinking/analyzing time) depending on your mood, different licks will flow. Note: That's a very over-simplified explanation.

Insights and incites by Notes

 

[dexdex]

Is it really what we or the audience wish ? I’m not only trying to be provocative, but also referring to common reactions I get from people around me, when speaking about music in general, and jazz in particular.

Maybe it is also an excuse, as I run out of ideas and vocabulary pretty quickly while soloing....:twisted::mrgreen:

 

[Reet McVouty]

One thing I notice about pro jazz musicians is their ability to keep playing and playing and playing and playing and just keep going with really long lines.

I'm getting bettter and saying more but this generally is and area I am curious about how to improve on.

I was thinking it probalby has something to do with really shedding modes, stacks, triads, enclosuers, licks and pivots and putting them all together.

Do you guys think sheddding modes is a big part of improving 'perpetual' style playing?

Would love to hear how you increased your ability to play and just keep going.

Yeah, I'm not sure that's really a great thing either. I'd rather hear someone play a couple of meaningful choruses then hear them rambling on and on. But I'm old school, I listen to a lot of Johnny Hodges, Ben Webster, Jimmy Forrest and the like. Those guys played with feeling and told a story when they soloed.

 

[andre251]

It is like someone else already said, vocabulary. Think of it more like actual speaking. Since most people can’t remember when they were developing speech as a child, I will use learning a foreign language instead. Think about trying to speak in a foreign language. You make the same issues trying to speak in that new-to-you language as you do as a beginning improviser. As you get into intermediate language you start making longer more logical sentences with correct grammar (style). Finally after learning many words and sentences, you are able to string along entire paragraphs naturally.
Just like with learning a foreign language, everything you want to say is there, you just need to build the vocabulary to do it.

 

[olds1959special]

I have my limit of ideas and time I can improvise before my solo falls apart.

 

[pontius]

I don't find modes very useful on the saxophone. I think guitarists get more out of modes because they can get shed/internalize scales and shapes on different parts of the fret board knowing that this or that mode fits this or that key. On the sax, you have one finger position, so if you know a major scale, you already know all the modes within it,.... just start on a different note. I know there is more to it on an advanced level of theory and modal and modern jazz involving modal interchange, borrowed notes, etc. but I have better luck thinking about the chords and the related key a song or part of a song is in and knowing the chord tones and trying to understand how those chords are functioning and try to feel the movement and resolution of those chords into one another.

My improvised lines are beginning to naturally get longer due to internalizing some ideas and concepts that you mentioned like enclosures, triads, logical resolutions like the 7 to 3 etc. Honestly, though the biggest break through or development for me is trying to play less but with more intent. You can create a whole lot of music by restricting yourself to some very simple ideas and playing around with repeated motifs that move with the harmony. The result can be some very long lines that sound complex and interesting but are really some simple ideas strung together.

 

[dogster]

One thing I notice about pro jazz musicians is their ability to keep playing and playing and playing and playing and just keep going with really long lines.

I'm getting bettter and saying more but this generally is and area I am curious about how to improve on.

I was thinking it probalby has something to do with really shedding modes, stacks, triads, enclosuers, licks and pivots and putting them all together.

Do you guys think sheddding modes is a big part of improving 'perpetual' style playing?

Would love to hear how you increased your ability to play and just keep going.

I feel it sometimes however working at it constantly to become more consistent like Trane lol

 

[click]

One thing I notice about pro jazz musicians is their ability to keep playing and playing and playing and playing and just keep going with really long lines.

I'm getting bettter and saying more but this generally is and area I am curious about how to improve on.

I was thinking it probalby has something to do with really shedding modes, stacks, triads, enclosuers, licks and pivots and putting them all together.

Do you guys think sheddding modes is a big part of improving 'perpetual' style playing?

Would love to hear how you increased your ability to play and just keep going.

One approach to consider is to take it from the other direction, that is

What features are present in a really good solo player, and what can I incorporate from those features into my own playing?

Here are some questions posed by Jerry Coker:

1. Choice of Materials. Does the artist make use of the best songs available? Is the song appropriate for the player's style and interpretation?

2. Emotional Content. Does his tone quality seem alive? Is he able to project, emotionally?

3. Versatility. How many different moods is he able to create? Does he adapt to new musical environments and establish rapport with others in the group? Is the excitement he creates limited to swing, rhythmic outbursts, humor and mischief? Or does the excitement also take on the more subtle aspects of beauty, thoughtfulness, sincerity, sweetness and melancholy?

4. Taste. Is the chosen mood always appropriate to the musical situation? Does he practice moderation and economy in using his materials and techniques?

5. Originality. Is the artist an innovator? Though he might show that he has absorbed the qualities of other players, is there a considerable amount of material which seems his own, so that one is actually able to distinguish him from other artists of a similar style? Does there seem to be a creative urge about him which causes his style to be constantly enriched with new ideas?

6. Intellectual Energy. Can the play hold one's interest with only the stimulus of his ingenuity? Is the player physical, cerebral, or both?

From Appendix A of "Improvising Jazz" by Jerry Coker, 1964.

 

[BrianMitchellBrody]

Learning how to sing improvisational parts is how I learned to improvise. If I can sing it I can play it.

I also do "by ear" transcribing of other players so I can see and feel what much better players than me are playing.

Vincent Herring is one of my favorites to watch who seems to have an unlimited vocabulary.

 

[dexdex]

One approach to consider is to take it from the other direction, that is

What features are present in a really good solo player, and what can I incorporate from those features into my own playing?

Here are some questions posed by Jerry Coker:

1. Choice of Materials. Does the artist make use of the best songs available? Is the song appropriate for the player's style and interpretation?

2. Emotional Content. Does his tone quality seem alive? Is he able to project, emotionally?

3. Versatility. How many different moods is he able to create? Does he adapt to new musical environments and establish rapport with others in the group? Is the excitement he creates limited to swing, rhythmic outbursts, humor and mischief? Or does the excitement also take on the more subtle aspects of beauty, thoughtfulness, sincerity, sweetness and melancholy?

4. Taste. Is the chosen mood always appropriate to the musical situation? Does he practice moderation and economy in using his materials and techniques?

5. Originality. Is the artist an innovator? Though he might show that he has absorbed the qualities of other players, is there a considerable amount of material which seems his own, so that one is actually able to distinguish him from other artists of a similar style? Does there seem to be a creative urge about him which causes his style to be constantly enriched with new ideas?

6. Intellectual Energy. Can the play hold one's interest with only the stimulus of his ingenuity? Is the player physical, cerebral, or both?

From Appendix A of "Improvising Jazz" by Jerry Coker, 1964.

Sic. It sounds familiar, I think have/had that book.

 

[lexbro]

It is like someone else already said, vocabulary. Think of it more like actual speaking. Since most people can't remember when they were developing speech as a child, I will use learning a foreign language instead. Think about trying to speak in a foreign language. You make the same issues trying to speak in that new-to-you language as you do as a beginning improviser. As you get into intermediate language you start making longer more logical sentences with correct grammar (style). Finally after learning many words and sentences, you are able to string along entire paragraphs naturally.
Just like with learning a foreign language, everything you want to say is there, you just need to build the vocabulary to do it.

Maybe effective speaking and/or playing in any language makes use of pauses and space for emphasis and effect as well?

 

[Dr G]

One thing I notice about pro jazz musicians is their ability to keep playing and playing and playing and playing and just keep going with really long lines.

I'm getting bettter and saying more but this generally is and area I am curious about how to improve on.

I was thinking it probalby has something to do with really shedding modes, stacks, triads, enclosuers, licks and pivots and putting them all together.

Do you guys think sheddding modes is a big part of improving 'perpetual' style playing?

Would love to hear how you increased your ability to play and just keep going.

Check out David Baker's "How to Play Bebop Vol 1" for starters.

See also Mike Steinel's "Building a Jazz Vocabulary".

Those two books will give you some things to work on for the next five years.

 

[HeavyWeather77]

This week I've been going on a research binge about one of my all-time favorite groups, Weather Report, and it's led to a number of interesting interviews with Joe Zawinul. Conceptually, Weather Report was very much a "jam band" in many ways, especially live, and they were able to improvise together compellingly for a very long time. I went through a jam band phase in high school, which is likely why Weather Report was one of my gateways into jazz. Joe and Wayne in particular are able to improvise very compellingly and interestingly, often over very static harmony.

Joe's philosophy about playing music is essentially – I'm paraphrasing – "whatever, we're just messing around, it's easy for us and we love doing it." He also says something along the lines of "when inspiration turns on, the brain turns off." This sounds like it's true for them, and probably everyone who came through that incredible band.

Personally, I have a very tough time improvising for more than a few choruses. When I'm playing a jazz gig or sitting in on a session or something, I'll usually err on the short side: if I'm asking myself whether I should take another chorus or not, if there's ever any question, I go with "no," because I think it's better to play too short than too long (by a wide margin). I think most musicians, most of the time, should probably think like that. But if inspiration and intuition are still going strong, if you're still spontaneously composing ideas with energy and authenticity, then hell yeah, keep going!

 

[Atratr]

Playing longer lines is an ability, which in this case involves a lot of other ones like (knowing and playing)scales, chords, chromatics, enclosures, chord tones, guide tones, arpeggios, pentatonics, triads, chord on chord playing, superimposition....the more you have on your hand the best, but you need them in REAL TIME. So before you get overwhelmed take this exercises...
1.Take a tune on a very very slow time, like 50 the quarter for example. Play a continuous line of eights without changing direction until the range of your instrument ask for it. You have to change the scale so it fits the harmony of the moment, no matter what note of the scale you are in. Endless variations for this. You set the rules.
2.Take a tune on a very very slow time, like 50 the quarter for example. The slower the more time you have to THINK AHEAD and plan where your line is going to. Then just play eight notes at that time. Play what you want, like a solo.

I think this helps in being more flexible in your instrument.
Of course, learning language in all keys and chords is key too.

I am adding those to my routine, and it opens my mind inmensely.

 

[turf3]

OP, have you ever listened to Bix Beiderbecke, Louis Armstrong, Coleman Hawkins, Red Allen, Rahsaan Roland Kirk, Johnny Hodges, or Harry Carney? All were well known for their ability to play an effective and meaningful solo on one or two choruses.

It simply is not true that length of solo correlates either with advancing skill, or with having more to say. I mean, where would that leave Bill Basie?

 

[andre251]

Maybe effective speaking and/or playing in any language makes use of pauses and space for emphasis and effect as well?

Of course. Proper use of language is never continuous run-on sentences.

 

[Dave Pollack]

Why does these questions always get answers like "playing ultra long lines isn't musical!!!" "you have to TELL A STORY!??!!"

He's just asking how to play longer lines...not saying he's going to play non-stop lines over every song. Jeez it's so tiring. Just like any skill, it's good to have it in the bag and use when necessary. Sheesh.

 

[andre251]

@Dave :cheers:

 

[J-Moen]

Why does these questions always get answers like "playing ultra long lines isn't musical!!!" "you have to TELL A STORY!??!!"

He's just asking how to play longer lines...not saying he's going to play non-stop lines over every song. Jeez it's so tiring. Just like any skill, it's good to have it in the bag and use when necessary. Sheesh.

Yesss!!!