[sikorajm]

On read an article on this site by John Lull on using the Pentatonic or Blues Scales soloing over the majority of R &B, etc.. My question is how does a person know which scale will fit over a song. I have used these scales and they do fit very well over the majority of songs, however, I have not found a way to immediately know which scale will fit without playing the scales to see which one matches. Any suggestions that work to know which scale will work as opposed to playing the scales to see if they fit????? THXXXXXXX

 

[RootyTootoot]

I have used these scales and they do fit very well over the majority of songs, however, I have not found a way to immediately know which scale will fit without playing the scales to see which one matches.

Your way is the best in many ways. You're doing it by ear, which is often (always??) the best guide when it comes to music. (IMHO)

 

[stormott77]

Unless you have a chord sheet in front of you the only way is to play along and see what works. If you do have the chords in front of you it is possible to figure out what will work.

 

[TommyD69]

Your way is the best in many ways. You're doing it by ear, which is often (always??) the best guide when it comes to music. (IMHO)

Which is why I hate having a mic clipped to the bell of my horn!

 

[ismail]

Well, as long as we are talking bluesy r&b stuff that does not modulate too much, the blues scale fit's perfectly most of the time and it's easy to find out which one to use:
hear the root in your head first, if needed, hum it. the root is the fundamental note that everything in that song resolves to. a fairly simple concept.
find that note on your horn.
play the blues scale built on that note.
done.

 

[sikorajm]

I kind of figured the only way is by ear. However, thank God for the mute button on my mike.

 

[mi000ke]

If it's a live band, ask what key they are playing in - you can get away with the root key blues scale for most of any tune until you can adjust to the changes, if they happen to be more complex than straight blues or R&B. And if they go out of the key, keep playing real loud and with confidence until they eventually come back to the key you're in and they will be amazed at how well you play outside

 

[JL]

sikorajm, since you are referring to my article, I thought I better respond. First, just to clarify one thing, I didn't exactly say the blues & pentatonic scale is used over the majority of R&B music. That may well be, but what I said is those scales are used extensively in blues and R&B. A slight difference in meaning; the blues/pentatonic scales are rarely used exclusively. They are mixed in with other sounds.

To answer your question, it of course comes down to using your ear. But to be specific, let's take a 12 bar blues for example.

You can play a minor pentatonic or a minor blues scale (minor pentatonic with b5), based on the tonic, through the entire progression. If you choose to use a major pentatonic, you have to change it when the chords change. So on the I7 chord you can use a I maj pentatonic, on the IV chord a IV maj pentatonic, and on the V chord a V maj pentatonic.

Example in C blues: Use the C (minor) blues scale throughout. Or use a C maj pentatonic over C7, F maj pentatonic over F7, G maj pentatonic over G7.

OR, you can use the I maj pentatonic on the I chord, then switch to a minor blues scale, based on the tonic, on the IV chord. Etc. So, in that C blues: C maj pentatonic over C7, C blues scale over F7. And so on.

But you really, really, really, can't just follow 'rules' like this by rote and sound good. It won't work that way. You have to use your ear, listen to how it's done on recordings, experiment, listen some more to the recordings, learn the actual chord tones, learn to play phrases, and get the rhythm/groove happening, etc.

Did I mention to listen to recordings?

 

[JohnGalt]

Should we even start to discuss that the traditional blues scale is far weaker that a major blues scale? (or mode 2 of a bues scale?)

 

[JohnGalt]

When I listen to Blues musicians, I hear far mor major blues than actual blues scale (assuming the song is in a major key)

 

[JL]

When I listen to Blues musicians, I hear far mor major blues than actual blues scale (assuming the song is in a major key)

I do too. Another reason I emphasize listening to recordings, and live performances of course.

Actually, good blues musicians play the changes (by using good phrasing, not 'by rote'). The blues scale and various blue notes are used as spice, not the main ingrediant. They are much more effective when used in moderation.

p.s. For the OP, the major blues scale is a major pentatonic with b3: 1 2 b3 3 5 6. And yes it gets used a lot in the blues, jump blues, R&B, R&R, jazz.

JohnGalt: Sure we should discuss the major blues scale, among other things. There's so much more to the blues than a lot of people realize. I like the traditional (minor) blues scale; it's a great sound, but man, as I think you imply, it's a huge mistake to limit the blues to that one scale!!!

 

[FawltyTenor]

That "minor" pentatonic (1, b3, 4, 5, 6) works quite well as a compliment or alternative to the usual blues scales. Players like Grover Washington, Sanborn, and earlier hard-bop players used those quite a bit.

 

[RootyTootoot]

Although I am no authority on this and certainly no great blues player, I usually find (for me) there's more mileage in minor and major pentatonics than the blues scale over a blues.

 

[JohnGalt]

I do too. Another reason I emphasize listening to recordings, and live performances of course.

Actually, good blues musicians play the changes (by using good phrasing, not 'by rote'). The blues scale and various blue notes are used as spice, not the main ingrediant. They are much more effective when used in moderation.

p.s. For the OP, the major blues scale is a major pentatonic with b3: 1 2 b3 3 5 6. And yes it gets used a lot in the blues, jump blues, R&B, R&R, jazz.

JohnGalt: Sure we should discuss the major blues scale, among other things. There's so much more to the blues than a lot of people realize. I like the traditional (minor) blues scale; it's a great sound, but man, as I think you imply, it's a huge mistake to limit the blues to that one scale!!!

I have always found it odd that music educators (out of weakness) cram the blues scale method as astarting improvisor technique. If your playing a blues in G major, you're never going to play the note that defines the key, B natural? Plus, asking a beginning improvisor to play altered tensions over a progression is not exactly conducive to having a player learn to make the notes they play reflect the sound of the chords-of-the-moment.

 

[sikorajm]

I have to agree with all, but I have found that in my short solo career, that I have found the major, minor, or blues works very well on the vast majority of music.

 

[sikorajm]

I would have to agggrrrreeee with all. I am fairly new at improvising. I am learning that improvising is a never ending learning process. I have discovered and hopefully folks will agreeee that the three scales do work as a simple way to improvise and a confidence builder. I find they work most of the time but you have to listen by ear which one will work the best. As I continue with improvising iIdo want to learn more ways to improvise over chord changes, etc.. I just began playing with a rock band playing 60 and 70s' music and find that the three scales work great. just a note that I can only read music and when asked to play with people that play only by ear was a real experience. I was real gun shy to do it but I found these three scales work great in R & R and is a confidence builder and sounds real clean. But now its time to explore outside the box and play with more defined chord progressions if this make sense. THXXXXXX

 

[JohnGalt]

20 years from now when you can actually improvise at a high level, you'll think otherwise.

 

[Captain Beeflat]

When I listen to Blues musicians, I hear far mor major blues than actual blues scale (assuming the song is in a major key)

I do so agree...adapting, only if necessary, the major scale.
The vast majority of R&B blues are in the major scale... otherwise a standard harp would not work with them.

 

[Pete Thomas]

That "minor" pentatonic (1, b3, 4, 5, 6) works quite well as a compliment or alternative to the usual blues scales. Players like Grover Washington, Sanborn, and earlier hard-bop players used those quite a bit.

Yes, the extra note in the "blues scales" either major or minor, are just embellishments or ornaments very often, or passing notes. As such they need to be treated in a different way which requires a feel for the musical phrasing of blues. Otherwise it just sounds like running up and down the blues scale.

I have always found it odd that music educators (out of weakness) cram the blues scale method as astarting improvisor technique.

I agree, it is probably out of weakness. It's a shortcut "starter pack" because with the minor blues scale alone, you can't really play a wrong note. But once you introduce the concept of major 3rds as well as minors, and you get someone play a clunker of a an E natural on F7, things can start to get a bit nasty.

But after listening to a whole lot of nothing but minor blues scales up and down I don't know what's worse.

 

[JL]

I have always found it odd that music educators (out of weakness) cram the blues scale method as astarting improvisor technique. If your playing a blues in G major, you're never going to play the note that defines the key, B natural? Plus, asking a beginning improvisor to play altered tensions over a progression is not exactly conducive to having a player learn to make the notes they play reflect the sound of the chords-of-the-moment.

In some ways it is putting the cart before the horse. Ideally, you'd learn the chords, inside and out, before trying to apply those altered tensions (or 'blue notes') that are part of the blues scale. Of course the reason educators start right off with a blues scale is because it can be used over all the changes in a basic blues. It's sort of a lazy approach, and the real problem is a lot of students won't go any further than simply playing a blues scale, as if that's all there is to the blues. Don't get me wrong, though. The blues scale is a great sound and a very powerful tool, but if you use it exclusively, without any regard to the changes or other stylistic elements, it loses most of its power. This is because those blue notes work as a contrast to the more 'inside' chord tones. As you say, if you never play a B natural in a G blues, there will be no contrast to the blue notes (Bb, Db, etc) and those blue notes lose their impact.

You also need that movement from tonic to subdominant and dominant to tonic. That is as important in the blues as in any other music. So knowing the chords and how to play over them and connect them is essential.

Just my 2 cents...