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If you signed a PayPal agreement you know that as a seller you are responsible for PayPal fees when selling merchandise. When you post that a buyer is to use Friends & Family payments, which evades PayPal's legitimate fees to be paid by you, or you write that the buyer must pay any normal PayPal fees, what are you thinking?

Tell you what I'm thinking: you're dishonest. Why should I trust you with an advance payment when you are clearly already stealing services from a vendor, or violating your agreement to pay the fees by passing them on to a buyer?

You want to cut your price below other sellers with the same or similar merchandise, so you cheat? Cha-ching! No Sale.
 

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if you don't like it then ask for an invoice from them,or say you will pay the fee's etc.
the fee is around 4% and on a $3000 saxophone that an extra $120.
some like to be pedantic about the rules,others like to bend them some.
many ways to live the life and move through it.
 

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This thread probably belongs in the eBay-PayPal subforum.

or you write that the buyer must pay any normal PayPal fees
I think you misunderstand this process. PayPal's rules don't prevent a seller from effectively shifting the expected fee to the buyer by raising the price accordingly. While that may not be feasible in a sales channel like eBay, where payments are generally made online, something like the SOTW Marketplace offers more flexibility. E.g., the seller can set the price at $100 for payment by cash or check, or $103.30 for payment by PayPal. If the buyer selects PayPal, everyone gets what he wants: the buyer gets purchase protection; the seller obtains the desired net sale price; and PayPal receives its fee (actually, the fee is a tiny bit greater, because it's calculated on a gross price of $103.30 rather than $100). No one is cheated.
 

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If you signed a PayPal agreement you know that as a seller you are responsible for PayPal fees when selling merchandise. When you post that a buyer is to use Friends & Family payments, which evades PayPal's legitimate fees to be paid by you, or you write that the buyer must pay any normal PayPal fees, what are you thinking?

Tell you what I'm thinking: you're dishonest. Why should I trust you with an advance payment when you are clearly already stealing services from a vendor, or violating your agreement to pay the fees by passing them on to a buyer?

You want to cut your price below other sellers with the same or similar merchandise, so you cheat? Cha-ching! No Sale.
Nothing wrong with asking buyer to pay PayPal fees. IF you don't want to pay those that is fine, send a check, use venmo (owned by PayPal and no fees).

Also ... What if you are buying a mouthpiece from a legitimate friend that happens to live in a different town. Where does that fall ??? You are sending money to a friend that you trust and he is sending you a mouthpiece. The fee is what you pay to get the protection, if you don't need the protection then it shouldn't and doesn't matter.
 

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Not to start a fight but you posted a flurry of moralistic posts that others may and may not agree with.

These were posted with no background and frankly, they are pretty evangelical.

Perhaps if there was a back story it would have been received differently but it basically sound like you got on a soapbox with a keyboard and started judging everyone simply because you could.


Personally, I dont have a dog in this fight either way. It has been discussed over and over. But Im not surprised you getting the reactions you have. Its an imperfect world of imperfect beings. Im not sure why you are fired up...maybe your not but it seems you are. Take a deep breath and enjoy. There are far larger injustices in this world.
 

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If you signed a PayPal agreement you know that as a seller you are responsible for PayPal fees when selling merchandise. When you post that a buyer is to use Friends & Family payments, which evades PayPal's legitimate fees to be paid by you, or you write that the buyer must pay any normal PayPal fees, what are you thinking?

Tell you what I'm thinking: you're dishonest. Why should I trust you with an advance payment when you are clearly already stealing services from a vendor, or violating your agreement to pay the fees by passing them on to a buyer?

You want to cut your price below other sellers with the same or similar merchandise, so you cheat? Cha-ching! No Sale.
Is this directed at one member or the general populous regarding the act of trying to "beat the system"?
 

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I thought the reason some vendors want their customers to use "Friends & Family" is primarily to avoid returns, not save 3%.
 

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Only because I read this far - if one has a merchant account, I believe you risk it by selling merchandise w/F&F.

I don't sell a lot of things but I always use the invoice and provide detailed descriptions and photos. It's what I would want as a buyer. No problems so far.

Maybe someone has the update but I recall the amounts that can be sent have changed.
 

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Me thinks it's both.
The OP has a point about vendors who accept only PayPal Friends & Family as payment, but the problem is that no matter how many of these discussions we have, sellers in that category never step up to defend the practice. E.g., "I'm in the business of selling musical equipment, and I insist on F&F payments -- here's why." Never see that here.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Not to start a fight but you posted a flurry of moralistic posts that others may and may not agree with.

These were posted with no background and frankly, they are pretty evangelical.

Perhaps if there was a back story it would have been received differently but it basically sound like you got on a soapbox with a keyboard and started judging everyone simply because you could.


Personally, I dont have a dog in this fight either way. It has been discussed over and over. But Im not surprised you getting the reactions you have. Its an imperfect world of imperfect beings. Im not sure why you are fired up...maybe your not but it seems you are. Take a deep breath and enjoy. There are far larger injustices in this world.

You are absolutely correct but, yes, there is a background story. No more posts like this from me. Things are what they are.
 

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SoTW is a community, and over time, I have developed relationships with members here who I trust and who trust me. So, I think that is a big reason when F&F is prevalent here. Now, a a seller, I ask for F&F but if a buyer is willing to add 3% to the price of the item for the buyer protection, I have NO problem with that. If a seller refused to do that for me, I'd pause.
 

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Grafton alto | Martin Comm III tenor
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I think you misunderstand this process. PayPal's rules don't prevent a seller from effectively shifting the expected fee to the buyer by raising the price accordingly.
Actually their rules do state that the seller may not chrage extra to cover the fees.

No surcharges

You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method.


https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full

So you can add a handling fee, but what they do not allow is adding anything extra that is not charged for other payment methods. So you can't say the price is $200 if you pay me by bank transfer, but $210 if you use Paypal. (Well you can say that, but it's against their terms)
 

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When I buy a piece and the seller asks for friends and family I just say I am not comfortable with that and prefer the regular payment. I offer to add the fees to my payment. I have never had a seller say no to this. I prefer this payment because of the insurance it provides if the piece never gets to me.

As far as if it is morally right it depends on what your definition of a friend is. You could say that buyer you meet here on a community forum are friends. I know I exchange many emails and PM's with many of you about a variety of issues including the saxophone, health, business, relationships, gigging........Many times I feel like I have relationships even though I have never met the person. I joked with my wife that at my funeral I want a big screen where people can post comments in real time about my impact or influence on them. This is especially important for me as I have a video lesson site for the last 11 years and have taught thousands of people who I have never met or even talked to. I guess it is all in how you look at it.
 

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One sticking point I have is that it seems to me that the seller is responsible for shipping and insurance. If the piece gets lost and never gets to the buyer then that is the sellers loss not the buyers. If I send something and it never gets to you, that is my loss. I've had people send items that got lost and then say it is my loss, or lets split it as things "happen". I as a buyer can't take insurance out on an item. Only the sender can do that. I can't even collect on the insurance because it is not in my name. I had one guy say he would refund me the money depending on how the mail insurance turns out. No, you should return the payment and then deal with your mail insurance issue on your own. It is your issue........This has been a pet peeve of mine.........
 

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if you don't like it then ask for an invoice from them,or say you will pay the fee's etc.
the fee is around 4% and on a $3000 saxophone that an extra $120.
some like to be pedantic about the rules,others like to bend them some.
many ways to live the life and move through it.
This is an issue. I've sold a few things here. One of which was a Phil Tone Equinox which I had priced incredibly low for a quick sale. I had one buyer give me so much grief it made me never want to sell anything here again.

I learned that if the buyer requests you to invoice them that you (the seller) are the one who gets stuck with the PP fees. Where as if they just send a payment to the seller then the buyer is the one who gets the fees.

This buyer was sooo rude, incredibly offensive and tried every which way he could to cheat me out of a few bucks on an item I had already priced at almost half the new price. Sending me funds for the wrong amount in the wrong currency.... and when I told him that he was going to lose almost $10 on the conversion rate he threatened to go public on SOTW and call me a scam artist (because I was not comfortable selling him the item and instantly attempted to refund him his payment).
 

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Also, I have never requested Paypal friends or family and I have never asked for someone to cover my Paypal fees. That always seems tacky to me. They are my fees for accepting money on paypal, why should I have the buyer pay them? Again, that seems tacky to me but that's just me........I have asked for shipping obviously but that is because that varies depending on where the buyer lives.
 

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I learned that if the buyer requests you to invoice them that you (the seller) are the one who gets stuck with the PP fees. Where as if they just send a payment to the seller then the buyer is the one who gets the fees.
Wait, what? I don't think this is true.

"There's no fee to use PayPal to purchase goods or services. However, if you receive money for goods or services (such as from selling an item on eBay), the fee for each transaction is 2.9% plus $0.30 USD of the amount you receive."

The seller pays the fees regardless......That has been my experience.
 

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Grafton alto | Martin Comm III tenor
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I learned that if the buyer requests you to invoice them that you (the seller) are the one who gets stuck with the PP fees. Where as if they just send a payment to the seller then the buyer is the one who gets the fees.
No, as Steve says the seller pays the fee. I wouldn'tb think of as "getting stuck with the fee," because that sounds like the buyer has reneged on something when in fact tit is, and always has been, the seller's obligation to pay the fees in return for the service they get from Paypal. The same for credit card processing gateways such as Worldpay, Sage, Stripe. Traditionally the seller pays for that service.
 
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