[DetroitDave]

Thanks for undertaking this really helpful project and for posting it on the forum. It is a priceless resource for those of us who have Pan Am saxes.

My Bb Soprano is a Pan American which I got off Ebay about 8 years ago. When I got it it still had the original white kid pads and was, and still is, in fantastic condition. Between my tech and I we decided that it was basically a Chu, but without the nailfile G# or rolled toneholes. We made that determination based on the shape and arrangement of the palm keys.

The S/N is 34571 and has no letter prefix. Above it there is an S, which I had assumed stood for Soprano. But looking at the photos on this thread of yours I just saw that there are other size saxes that also had the same "S", so I have no idea now what it signifies.......

I second these thoughts... Thanks, again badenia! This project is enormously helpful.

Jazz Is All, I think the S above your serial number does signify "soprano." My alto, only 12k serial numbers newer, has the "A" for alto in the same place.

 

[Ballad state of mind]

One of my Altos is a Pan American with the serial no.155024. That I've had no luck so far trying to get a year. Any ideas. Thanks

 

[bruce bailey]

One of my Altos is a Pan American with the serial no.155024. That I've had no luck so far trying to get a year. Any ideas. Thanks

The P-A flute I have with a similar 150s number has a sales invoice new in 1954 so I would guess around the end of the line in 1955-57.

 

[Ballad state of mind]

The P-A flute I have with a similar 150s number has a sales invoice new in 1954 so I would guess around the end of the line in 1955-57.

Thanks a lot Bruce. Very much appreciated.

 

[Jazz Is All]

I second these thoughts... Thanks, again badenia! This project is enormously helpful.

Jazz Is All, I think the S above your serial number does signify "soprano." My alto, only 12k serial numbers newer, has the "A" for alto in the same place.

Well I thought i had seen a tenor or alto in a photo earlier that has the same S, but maybe I saw it wrong.

Anyway, I wonder if the date of my serial number is on the data base so I can know more exactly. Anyone?

 

[DetroitDave]

Well I thought i had seen a tenor or alto in a photo earlier that has the same S, but maybe I saw it wrong.

Yes those photos were a bit confusing because the text referred to several different horns, but I'm pretty sure the one with the "S" serial number was of the soprano.

Anyway, I wonder if the date of my serial number is on the data base so I can know more exactly. Anyone?

I'm sure when badenia has a chance, he'll give you a more precise estimate. But earlier in this thread badenia mentioned that serial 35402 was from 1928, and that the "P" serial numbers were discontinued right around that year, too. So your serial number, 34571, only 831 numbers earlier, must be right around that same time.

 

[Jazz Is All]

Thanks Dave, for the clarification of the S. Makes a lot more sense cause otherwise why would it be there. The 1928 date seems to fit with the determination that I made when I got the sax that it is was based on the Chu, but without the rolled tone holes or the nailfile G#.

 

[badenia]

Thanks for undertaking this really helpful project and for posting it on the forum. It is a priceless resource for those of us who have Pan Am saxes.

My Bb Soprano is a Pan American which I got off Ebay about 8 years ago. When I got it it still had the original white kid pads and was, and still is, in fantastic condition. Between my tech and I we decided that it was basically a Chu, but without the nailfile G# or rolled toneholes. We made that determination based on the shape and arrangement of the palm keys.

The S/N is 34571 and has no letter prefix. Above it there is an S, which I had assumed stood for Soprano. But looking at the photos on this thread of yours I just saw that there are other size saxes that also had the same "S", so I have no idea now what it signifies. Here are some photos.

View attachment 60722 View attachment 60723 View attachment 60724

Thanks, I have added it to the sample. This looks to be a straight soprano? If so it's a 54M with a vintage of 1928. And like Detroit Dave said the "S is for soprano, but also signifies Bb. The C sopranos get a "C", like the C melodies.

 

[badenia]

One of my Altos is a Pan American with the serial no.155024. That I've had no luck so far trying to get a year. Any ideas. Thanks

The serial 155024 dates to 1953 based on the dating system/ If is has brass keys it's a 58M, the the keys are nickel it's a 68M. I just recently came accross the 68M model number being the nickel trim variant of the 58M. Let me know, so I can properly include in the sample.

 

[badenia]

I am attaching to this entry the current results of the Pan American Serial Number Dating study. It is based on 955 examples taken over 11 months. The sample continues to grow and is today at 978 examples with no effect on the survey results, but confirming the study's alignment.

I will continue to collect examples as the next step it to try to get production statistics. For that the sample will have to get to 1100 or more. So please continue to provide your serial numbers and descriptions. I am also gathering woodwind and brass examples as well.

I am now also collecting examples for a similar study on Elkhart Band Instrument Co (EBIC) and ART Musical Instruments (ART & American Triumph). I will likely start forum threads for those soon.

View attachment Pan American Serial Number Dating System.pdf

Please keep in mind, this study is current, but subject to change. This version and any future changes will be published on the Conn Loyalist site. That site will have the latest version going forward.

The bolded, centered and larger font in the Serial Number Start column signify a strong dating data point with serials converging on model, changes and related historical documentation.
The bolded and centered serial numbers in the same column indicated relatively good dating data points.
Unbolded and not centered serial numbers are calculated based upon the bolded data points.

My thanks go to Stocker, Bruce Bailey and JayePDX from this forum, the Conn Loyalist and horn-u-copia for providing much aide and assistance in the development of this report. Stocker, in particular, has been a valued resource in guiding the progress of the study. Both Bruce Bailey and JayePDX have provided important insights to the development.

Please let me know any comments or questions.
Kurt

 

[Jazz Is All]

Thanks, I have added it to the sample. This looks to be a straight soprano? If so it's a 54M with a vintage of 1928. And like Detroit Dave said the "S is for soprano, but also signifies Bb. The C sopranos get a "C", like the C melodies.

Yes it is a straight Bb Sop. Sorry I didn't mention that. It doesn't have a Front F key, rolled tone holes or a nailfile G#, but it does have the teardrop palm key touches so it is a Pan Am that is at least partly a NW II. Thank you very much for the model info and the year. That is really good to know and so very helpful of you. Again, you should be commended for this project and I hope they make your chart a Sticky so it will be readily available to all Pan Am owners. I'm sure there are plenty of them.

JIA

 

[High Fly]

When you say teardrop palm keys, as opposed to what shape?

Also, I thought one big change in that period, and those keys was the switch from posts to feet as stops. Is that true?

 

[badenia]

Yes it is a straight Bb Sop. Sorry I didn't mention that. It doesn't have a Front F key, rolled tone holes or a nailfile G#, but it does have the teardrop palm key touches so it is a Pan Am that is at least partly a NW II. Thank you very much for the model info and the year. That is really good to know and so very helpful of you. Again, you should be commended for this project and I hope they make your chart a Sticky so it will be readily available to all Pan Am owners. I'm sure there are plenty of them.

JIA

In my observations, there are differences between the Pan American and contemporary Conn models. Just like there are differences between Cadillacs, Buicks and Chevrolets, Pan American as a separate company (incorporated in 1919) and selling at lower price points had to make enough differences to publish their own catalog of unique model numbers, establish their own serial number system, and market to a different segment. Additionally Pan American promoted "stenciling" or private labeling as a free service. But like Cadillac and Buick there are also "family" resemblances.

 

[Jazz Is All]

When you say teardrop palm keys, as opposed to what shape?

Also, I thought one big change in that period, and those keys was the switch from posts to feet as stops. Is that true?

This is a NW I straight Bb soprano.

This is a NW II straight Bb soprano.

Look at the palm keys and notice that in the NW I the F key is short, i.e., it ends up higher than the other two whereas on the NW II it is longer and ends down lower than the D and Eb keys. Additionally the keys themselves are different shapes with the I's keys rounder than the II's. Also the G# on the II is not different just because it has the crosshatched pattern but because it's shape is entirely different. My Pan Am has the lozenge shape but more rounded at the corners and without the crosshatching.

As to feet versus posts, I can't actually make out from photos what the I has, but my Pan Am has feet on the D and F palms but a post under the Eb plam as well as one under the Eb1 key. Those are the only posts on mine.

As to the toneholes, my Pan Am doesn't have rolled toneholes like the Conns, but years ago I read of one Pan Am that was being sold by WW Sax, I think, that had a mixture of straight and rolled toneholes.

This is a photo of my Pan Am Sop showing the palm keys and the G# key.

 

[DetroitDave]

Way to go badenia, Stocker, Bruce Bailey and JayePDX and all! This is a very, very helpful document... THANKS!

My PanAm 64M alto's serial number, 46676, didn't get mentioned specifically on the pdf file list, but it's squarely in the middle of the 1931 model year, with the eagle and globe logo. But the notes in the center column mention right hand bell keys, yet mine has left side bell keys, so I'm a tad confused. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.

 

[badenia]

The right bell keys refers to the 54M Bari's only. You are correct though as the rest have left hand bell keys.

 

[badenia]

"As to the toneholes, my Pan Am doesn't have rolled toneholes like the Conns, but years ago I read of one Pan Am that was being sold by WW Sax, I think, that had a mixture of straight and rolled toneholes."

I have surveying the Conns' on a casual basis and found that the 1915 - 1918 generally have straight tone holes. In 1919 there seems to have been a transistion phase as around 58000 where i see see mixed straight and rolled versions. It looks like right around serial 60000 all Conns were rolled. The exception seems to be Artist models where the mixing of rolled and straight seems to have stated around 46000.
While the accepted change back for Conn to straight holes is in the year 1948, I have seen many examples of straight tone hole beginning in the 325000 serials, which are considered 1947 models.
For the most part, though from 1920 until 1947/8, one of the separations between Conn models and Pan American models is the Rolled Vs Straight tone holes, respectively.

 

[Conrado]

This is a great informative thread I have been reading because I am considering the purchase of a Pan American Bari sax with these numbers: 1153489B and 52868L. I gather that the first number is a Patent and the second is the SN. It also has the date of Sept 14 1915 stamped on it. Here is a photo of the sax. I would appreciate any insights you have on it including date of manufacture and any known attributes and qualities associated with it. Thanks in advance for your feedback.

 

[Jazz Is All]

The Sept 14 date is the patent date, not the date of manufacture. However I don't know what year that SN refers to, I am assuming that the L is for low pitch, but usually that is below the SN on a line by itself.

 

[Conrado]

Thanks for your reply. I haven't seen a photo of the SN so I think it is the Seller putting it on the same line and is probably underneath the SN. Why is the year of the SN in-determinative in this case?