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Thanks for undertaking this really helpful project and for posting it on the forum. It is a priceless resource for those of us who have Pan Am saxes.

My Bb Soprano is a Pan American which I got off Ebay about 8 years ago. When I got it it still had the original white kid pads and was, and still is, in fantastic condition. Between my tech and I we decided that it was basically a Chu, but without the nailfile G# or rolled toneholes. We made that determination based on the shape and arrangement of the palm keys.

The S/N is 34571 and has no letter prefix. Above it there is an S, which I had assumed stood for Soprano. But looking at the photos on this thread of yours I just saw that there are other size saxes that also had the same "S", so I have no idea now what it signifies.......
I second these thoughts... Thanks, again badenia! This project is enormously helpful.

Jazz Is All, I think the S above your serial number does signify "soprano." My alto, only 12k serial numbers newer, has the "A" for alto in the same place.
 

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Well I thought i had seen a tenor or alto in a photo earlier that has the same S, but maybe I saw it wrong.
Yes those photos were a bit confusing because the text referred to several different horns, but I'm pretty sure the one with the "S" serial number was of the soprano.

Jazz Is All said:
Anyway, I wonder if the date of my serial number is on the data base so I can know more exactly. Anyone?
I'm sure when badenia has a chance, he'll give you a more precise estimate. But earlier in this thread badenia mentioned that serial 35402 was from 1928, and that the "P" serial numbers were discontinued right around that year, too. So your serial number, 34571, only 831 numbers earlier, must be right around that same time.
 

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Way to go badenia, Stocker, Bruce Bailey and JayePDX and all! This is a very, very helpful document... THANKS!

My PanAm 64M alto's serial number, 46676, didn't get mentioned specifically on the pdf file list, but it's squarely in the middle of the 1931 model year, with the eagle and globe logo. But the notes in the center column mention right hand bell keys, yet mine has left side bell keys, so I'm a tad confused. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.
 

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Well, the whole point of this thread is Pan American saxophone dating. The big announcement is that badenia (with help from Stocker, Bruce Bailey and JayePDX and several others) published his findings earlier in this thread in post #50 as a pdf file here on SOTW --

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showth...dating-Study&p=2321140&viewfull=1#post2321140

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=61160&d=1416993084+

He mentions in that post that updates would be stored on The Conn Loyalist website, the main site that tracks dates of Conn instruments. See:
http://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnSerialsPanAmWW.html

As you can see, according to the chart, serial number 52868 was built in 1935.
 

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I don't know if you know about my gallery of saxophone images, but there are a number of Pan American horns in there in addition to these 2.
Helen,
I love the Bassic Sax pics site... thanks so much for hosting that. Great stuff!
Just in case you've not yet seen it, you will find Badenia's Pan American dating study very helpful. Here's the pdf file he uploaded on SOTW:
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=61160&d=1416993084

And here's the same data hosted on the Conn Loyalist site:
http://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnSerialsPanAmWW.html
I believe it's this file that badenia will update from time to time.
 

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:)Just picked up a cheap little Pan Am "Eagle & Globe" alto S/N 47750, which makes it 1932?
Same side bell keys, tuner neck, 6 locking grub screws (4 missing), re-padded with plastic reso pads. Needs a new neck cork, Low C buffer adjusting (currently stuffy lower stack due to this buffer being too far out. Wedging the key closed a little solves the stuffiness), and some corks and other key positions adjusted, but apart from that it plays up and down fine. What's left of the re-lacquer appears to be from the Buffet "Sparkle" spray booth?
DavidUK, yours is very much like my Pan Am alto serial 46676 which Badenia identified as a model 64M, made in late 1931 or in 1932, so your age estimate is right on target. Same interesting micro-tuner neck and everything. Mine was silver-plated, though... not lacquered.

Photos from a couple years ago: http://forum.saxontheweb.net/album.php?albumid=884

Mine is currently at Saxquest in St. Louis where it just finished getting a full overhaul. Mark Overton called me a couple of days ago let me know it is ready and said it "is a beautiful horn." I can't wait to get back to StL to pick it up. Will post new photos soon after I get it back home, probably next week.
 

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Hi Dave,
Yes, looks identical.
I'm in two minds whether to strip it back to raw or leave it as is. The engraving has been buffed before re-lacquer so won't be sharp.
What would you do?
I dunno. I am not an expert on these things. What was the original finish? I think my preference would be to just clean it up and leave the surviving lacquer on or remove it with one of the non-buffing processes and go with bare brass. The current "vibe" discriminates against re-lacquers, but I think it's more a personal opinion thing. It also depends on whether you want to keep or sell the horn. Re-lacquers generally bring less at auction. But I see nothing wrong with re-lacquering a horn to make it look pretty again, if that's your preference.
 

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Here's another option:
http://www.saxquest.com/repair-shop/before-after-gallery

Two horns featured... the 1932 Conn bari is the more appropriate one for our purposes here.

I don't think Conn was lacquering horns in 1932, but I could be wrong about that. Anyway, I am guessing your alto was originally plated -- probably silver -- and was subsequently buffed to brass then lacquered?

At any rate, silver replating might be the ticket. Or, at least, another option to consider. Not suggesting you send your horn to St Louis, but it's a good bet Mark Overton at Saxquest might have some good references for UK techs who could do it. In any case, he loves to discuss any and all things saxophonic, so it couldn't hurt to contact him.
 

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According to the 1932 catalog, the sax line was offered in polished brass or silver plate with gold washed bell.

Glad you're monitoring this thread DetroitDave!! It's about all I can do to keep up with my surveys, registries and history at the moment.
Kurt
Do you have a copy of the 1932 catalog? Are there images of it available online somewhere? I'd love to see a copy of that!
Cheers,
Dave
 

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From a post on Facebook in the Vintage Conn group. Not sure if I have permission to post the pic.
Tenor #147369
Alto #54659

re: the tenor... made in 1953 or 54?

re: the alto.... according to your serial number chart that alto was made in 1937, I think. So, same 64M model as my alto #46675, only his was toward the end of the "eagle and globe" logo engraving and mine was the first year or two of that logo.

Do you have any other interesting tidbits about any of these horns?
 

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I have a revised dating system almost ready, that puts the 64M at 1939. The change to the dating comes from a search of trademarks used on the stencils and a bit more in depth reading of catalogs....
I am confused. So the revised dating system has the 64M starting in 1939 or ending in 1939? If '39 is the starting date, what model are the "eagle and globe" logo saxes prior to that year?
Thanks,
DD
 

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And now that I have a computer:
...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pan-American-C-Melody-Saxophone-/201460883299 (the misinformation in that annoys me greatly, I'm not sure if they'll listen to my message)
...
I'm pretty sure they won't listen. I actually sent a message to the seller, because I was interested in bidding on the C-melody sax. My main question was about how he would pack the saxophone for shipping because I have received other eBay horns that were damaged from being poorly packed, but I also mentioned that his information about the history of Pan American saxes was incorrect. Here is my question to him:

Dear welchmusic,

If I were to purchase your PanAm C melody sax, can you describe how it would be packed for shipping? Also, your history of the Pan American company is incorrect. They did not stop making Pan Am saxes after 1928. In fact, Pan American continued making saxes through the late 20's all fo the 30's and 40's (save for two years during WW2) and well into the 50's.

For many details, see:
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?213772-Pan-American-Serial-Number-dating-Study
And here is his response to me:

Dear (eBay username),

You really **** me off. Any person with experience knows how to safely pack a saxophone. I have personally packed hundreds. I am more interested in it arriving intact to you, than you are. I do not wish to debate you on the history of Conn-Pan American. The sax is what it is. I am quite near blocking you form corrosponding with me. care less where you buy the instrument or not. Someone will someday and then it it will sell. Why not calm down and be a gentleman? You know where I stand. Your call!

Kermit Welch teacher, well respected scholar- musician with many gigs behind me.
I am not quite sure what about my question ticked this guy off so badly, and made him tell me that I am not a gentleman. I did reply to his message, apologizing that my question pissed him off and assuring him that was not my intent. I also assured him that I would not bid on his item, after his insulting and rude reply.

Dear welchmusic,

Sorry to **** you off.. it was not my intent. I only asked about packing because I have received two other saxophones from other eBay sellers that arrived in poor condition because they were not well packed. I had no idea who you are or what you do for a living. It is good to know that your packing would be better. But not to worry, after your rude and disrespectful response you won't be getting any bids from me.
Cheers,
Dave
I still am interested in finding a good C-mel for a decent price, but I am not in a hurry and don't need to deal with people like that guy. Anyway, I fear your corrections to his misinformation about Pan American history will fall on deaf ears.
 
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