[jlima]

I just got myself an exceptional 1957 Mark VI tenor. Until now I've been playing on a Ref 54. I love the Mark VI, but I am in a sort of dilemma regarding the palm keys (right and left hand).
The previous owner glued cork key risers on all of them, right and left, and they are quite high. Being used to the Ref 54 palm key height, I am finding it awkward to play on the Mark VI in these keys as they are currently. Sometimes I involuntarily hit them and open keys that I don't want to. So this is the dilemma:
1. Should I simply remove the key risers? I would definitely do that if the key height would then become the same as on my Ref 54. But I'm not sure this will be the case. The key risers on the Mark VI were glued in such a way that it's difficult to say where the key actually starts. Would you know if the height is exactly the same in both horns? I read that the Ref 54 is inspired by the design of the Mark VI, but I want to be sure with regard to this particular issue.
2. I am afraid that removing the risers will damage the keys, because the cork is glued and I don't know exactly what material was been used to do that.

Thank you in advance for your help!

 

[Stephen Howard]

If the risers are causing problems you should remove them. If you subsequently find that the palm key touchpieces are too low you can always fit new risers.

As there's no way to know what glue has been used you'll have to take a trial and error approach.
I'd be inclined to start by heating them with a hair dryer. This may help to soften the glue, after which the risers should just slide off.
If this doesn't work you'll have to cut them off. I'd advise against simply snapping them off in case the glue takes any lacquer with it.

Perhaps the best way to do this is to cut the cork as close as you can to the top of the key - give yourself a few millimetres leeway to avoid nicking the key.
You'll then need to soak the corks in some kind of solvent.
Cigarette lighter fluid is usually a good bet for most contact adhesives. Get a small ball of cotton wool, soak it in the fluid and place it atop each touchpiece. Top the fluid up as necessary (you might want to place a cloth under the keys to avoid making a mess - though the fluid won't damage the finish).
Let them soak for 15 minutes or so and then see if the cork comes away.

Alternatively, simply remove the keys and dip the ends in a container filled with lighter fluid. Each key is held on by a single rod screw - it's a simple enough job to remove the screw and lift the key away. Refitting is just as easy.

If after 15 minutes nothing has moved then it might be that the risers have been glued on with epoxy resin - in which case you have something of a problem.
This stuff can be removed with heat, though you'll need a gas gun to achieve it and there's a risk of damaging the finish...so it's a job for a repairer. Even then you might still lose the finish.

Regards,

 

[Mike F]

jlima, I can answer the other part of your question for you. I have a Ref 54 and two MKVI tenors, although I'm about to sell the Ref. The LH palm keys on both MKVI's are higher or at least as high as the Ref (especially the LH high D which is particularly low on the Ref), so I'd have no hesitation in removing the risers on the LH on the 6 if I were you. The RH is a little different in that the palm keys feel a little lower on the 6, but that's mostly because the thumb rest is slightly further to the left on the Ref so the keys are in a relatively different place. It's not by much but you notice when you're very familiar with both. Also the RH palm keys are a little further south towards the bow on the 6, so it can be easy to hit the side c as well as the Bb if you're very used to the Ref. It's not a problem when you get used to the 6 though.

If it was me I'd remove the risers and see how it feels - you can always put them back - but basically, you'll find the palm keys on the 6 feel similar or higher than the Ref 54. Hope this helps.

Edit: Perhaps I should add the caveat that my 6's are from 64 and 75 (238XXX) and they feel slightly different. A 6 from 57 will feel slightly different again, and my recollection of playing 6's from that period is that they feel slightly 'smaller' if anything, but I very much doubt that the palm keys will feel lower than on the Ref.

 

[beezer]

I have both and I have had to put risers on the top D and Eb of the Ref54 to bring them to the same height as the 6 (1955).
No issues with the RH.
Dave

 

[JL]

The beauty of cork risers is they can be sanded to fit. So another thing you could do is to lightly and carefully sand them down bit by bit, testing them out as you go, until they feel about right to you. If you get them sanded most of the way down, they are still too high and you decide to remove them altogether, then I bet the solvent method Stephen Howard described above would work. Almost certainly they were glued on with a contact adhesive. I can't imagine anyone foolish enough to use epoxy for this purpose, but you never know...

 

[jlima]

To those who replied so far, thank you very much, your posts have been very helpful.

 

[Reedscraper]

I agree with sanding. Done it many times. A medium file can take it down as far as you want in 30 min or less. Most corks are put on with Contact Cement which you can just pull of without fear of damage. Take your thumbnail and scrape the remaining small pieces of cork.

 

[Sigmund451]

I found I didnt need risers as much on a VI. Where as I had two on the 54, I only felt the need for one on the VI.

...of course they were the slip off Runyon kind so one may have fallen off leaving me just to get used to it!

In general I felt I really needed them on the 54. On the VI I felt they only hit the "helpful" mark on the necessity meter.

 

[jlima]

I found I didnt need risers as much on a VI. Where as I had two on the 54, I only felt the need for one on the VI.

Right or left hand?

 

[Sigmund451]

Sorry, left hand (palm keys).

 

[hakukani]

MkVIs were not consistent through their run on the position of the palm keys. On my VI alto, the F lh palm key was way too low compared to the others. I had my tech adjust it so that it was comfortable. Unless you have really big hands, or your palm is inflexible, I've never seen the need for risers. As DanPerez stated wisely in another thread--the movement for the lh palm keys is down, not across.

With many of my students, I've found that the lh wrist is placed too high. This has the side effect of making the palm keys difficult to operate.

 

[Smokey613]

Try taking the palm keys off. Then heat a cup or so of water in a microwave or on a stove to a boil. Then place just the tip of the key with the cork risers in the heated water for a few minutes. I have found this a very effective way to soften the glue and the cork for easier removal without harming the finish on the keys.

 

[Sigmund451]

Keep the lacquer out of the hot water or it will remove it too.

 

[Smokey613]

I have not an issue on 6 neck corks so far... maybe I have just been lucky or extremely good quality lacquer on them. I do not submerge the neck any farther than the cork.

 

[hakukani]

Keep the lacquer out of the hot water or it will remove it too.

It's been awhile since I saw a MkVI with any lacquer on the palm keys

 

[Smokey613]

It's been awhile since I saw a MkVI with any lacquer on the palm keys

Especially not one I would be working on in any case... I can't afford a beater MKVI must less one pristine enough to have lacquer on the palm keys.

 

[Sigmund451]

LOL...good point. Believe it or not mine does...that just tells me I need to practice more!

Of course its not original lacquer but its by far not a new relaq....better get to sweating and shedding.

 

[jlima]

It's been awhile since I saw a MkVI with any lacquer on the palm keys

Exactly. I'm not too concerned about the lacquer, the horn has lost about 20-30% of the lacquer anyway already in several areas.

 

[jlima]

Lots of great ideas here, I love this Forum.

 

[jlima]

OK, now I'm reporting back. After reading carefully the advice given here, I went ahead and decided to take off the risers. They were huge, by the way. First I used the hair drier method that Stephen suggested. One of the 6 risers came off in one piece and easily after that, but the other five remained firmly glued, so I picked a cardbox cutter and gradually cut the cork until I decided I was close enough to the keys. Then I heated them again with the hair drier and proceeded to take the most cork that I could with my thumbnail (I have strong nails, so that worked relatively well). But there were still pieces of cork firmly stuck on the keys and also several pieces of glue. By now, I realized that the cork had been glued with contact cement. So more heath on the keys and gradually the glue began to come out with the nail technique. After around 30 minutes, the job was done. I polished the keys with a cloth slightly soaked with sanitary alcohol. There was little lacquer left on the keys, as I had imagined, and none of what was left was removed with this operation.
The next step was going into the practice room and seeing how the Mark VI felt after this. Well, in a word: perfect. No need for key risers at all, the sax feels so much more comfortable without them! The left hand keys are even slightly more comfortable that on the Ref 54 and the side right-hand keys will take very little time to get used to. As has been said here, the only thing that's a little different about them on the Mark VI is that they're positioned slightly more to the south than on the Ref 54, but it's really easy to adjust to that. I played for an hour using side Bb a lot and I didn't hit the side C key even once.
So thank you all for your help :thumbrig: , problem solved for me!