[DryMartini]

Hi all I was wondering one of the challenges I am having is playing palm key Eb to E and to a lesser extent F and F#. I feel like going from Eb to E is way harder than it should be.

I notice that there seems to be a break when going from Eb to E as in I loose the air column and the note seems to die sometimes. It basically feels like it is not as easy to play going from E to Eb as it is on other saxophones. For example with Yamaha I don't have this issue. It is something that usually gets better as I warm up or with a better reed but it is something I have noticed and bugs me.

I first realized this in big band when we had some whole note palm Key E's written out and really struggled with playing them in tune. And the note generally was hard to play- I had to lip up to get it to come out and then it goes way sharp of course.

My horn is Ref 36 tenor serial #700XXX.

What could be possible tech issues causing this? Has anyone esle experienced this?

 

[mijderf]

You might want to check out a slightly harder reed. I would see if the reed is involved before taking the horn in for work. I realize that you are not having this problem on the Yamaha, but this would be a quick cross check before looking at the mechanisms.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Just wondering, how is the front top E. Obviously the palm E should be fine, but I was just wondering about the front E as a workaround for when it’s appropriate.

 

[LostConn]

First, I think you are correct that most saxophones display a slight change in responsiveness when going from palm Eb to palm E. It's just one of those acoustic features of the instrument that everyone has to get used to.

Of course, that doesn't mean that the change has to be so noticeable that the player experiences it as a problem. Generally, the reed, the mouthpiece, and the horn (mainly the neck design) all contribute to a saxophone's responsiveness in the upper register. Regular practice up there, with both long tones and articulations (often starting a high note is the biggest challenge) should help a lot. But you can also experiment with different equipment just to get a better idea of how each item affects the final result, and to understand how much is just a matter of your embouchure and breath support. I agree with the previous post that the first experiment should be with reeds. First go 1/2 strength up, then maybe try a different model.

I can't speak to the feel of the Ref. 36, but it's not implausible that it's slightly more resistant at the high end than whatever Yamaha you have tried.

 

[saxoclese]

I don't quite understand the problem presented. High Eb is played by opening the D and Eb palm keys at the same time. Adding the top side key takes that to E natural. In my experience the change is usually effortless both acoustically and technically. I can relate to a front E sometimes being stuffy or unresponsive which typically can be traced to the front F key not opening the F palm key high enough or to "voicing" issues.

 

[lydian]

Is it possible you're accidentally touching the F palm and opening it a little? The touch on the F on a Ref 36 looks pretty high, a lot higher than on my MKVI, hence easier to accidentally open.

It's very common for the palm key notes to play out of tune if the air support and embouchure isn't there. You just need to practice those a lot more. Pick a few familiar tunes and play them way up high so you're using your ears and adjusting quickly from one note to the next. Your intonation and dexterity up there will benefit immensely. The fact that you're already playing in a section and are forced to be in tune is a good start.

 

[1saxman]

I don't quite understand the problem presented. High Eb is played by opening the D and Eb palm keys at the same time. Adding the top side key takes that to E natural. In my experience the change is usually effortless both acoustically and technically. I can relate to a front E sometimes being stuffy or unresponsive which typically can be traced to the front F key not opening the F palm key high enough or to "voicing" issues.

That. How can palm D# not play, or how can it be that a player feels like they can't support that note? D# to E is simple - add the E side key. How can that be difficult?

 

[jman1977]

That. How can palm D# not play, or how can it be that a player feels like they can't support that note? D# to E is simple - add the E side key. How can that be difficult?

I'm wondering this as well. If it was front E it would make more sense that there might be issues. But I've never had any transitional issues with palm E flat to palm E, which is just a simple matter of adding the E side key.

 

[lydian]

Another guess is you're using the wrong fingering. Can you describe how you finger E and F#? Maybe you have those two right hand keys confused?

You have a column of 3 right hand side keys. The top one is for E. The F# is the large chevron shaped key (no pearl) between the column of side keys and the F# trill key with the pearl.

EDIT: Taking a closer look, the Ref 36 has a quite unusual E side key with what looks like an adjustable linkage. Is it possible that screw has come loose and is no longer opening the cup fully? That would account for some of the strangeness. What if you reach up with your right hand and fully open the E cup with your fingers, does that help?

 

[Pete Thomas]

I’m confused in the OP about palm E keys written out.

I’ve never seen any notation that designates a top E must be a palm (or palm Eb + side top E)
As opposed to leaving it up to the player to choose palm or front E.

And not had an answer to my question about front E.

I also don’t understand how a mere adding of a finger causes a player to “loose (Lose?) the air column)

 

[lydian]

I've never seen any notation that designates a top E must be a palm

I'm pretty sure he simply means high E, not strictly the palm fingering. He just says "palm" to differentiate it from middle E.

He may not know front E exists or how to finger it.

I'm also scratching my head over losing the air column. I can't think of any scenario that could possibly cause this.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Well given that there is also an issue with F and F# (to a lesser extent) and it is something that just started happening, it is pointing towards an issue with the saxophone. Whether it’s a leak at octave key, tenon, mouthpiece cork or something else...

Take it to a tech if you can’t find anything yourself that could cause this.

 

[DryMartini]

OH DEAR this is why I post here.

As some one suggested!
I was inadvertently hitting part of another key.

Wow how could I not have noticed that?!

Sometimes posts seem stupid - but sometimes we just need someone to talk to.

Thanks

 

[lydian]

That's great to hear. Was hoping it was as simple as accidentally hitting another key. Glad we could steer you in the right direction.

I wouldn't expect C side to make any difference. But if that fixed it, can't argue with the result.

 

[saxoclese]

Once again:

Occam's razor simply states that of any given set of explanations for an event occurring, the simplest one is most likely the correct one.

 

[Saxray]

I'm pretty sure he simply means high E, not strictly the palm fingering. He just says "palm" to differentiate it from middle E.

He may not know front E exists or how to finger it.

.

Ok, so I guess I´m revealing my ignorance here, but what is front E and how do you finger it?

/Saxray

 

[lydian]

Ok, so I guess I´m revealing my ignorance here, but what is front E and how do you finger it?

/Saxray

 

[harmonizerNJ]

Playing high E is the entry point to altissimo notes.
For some of us, it is also a very powerful note. For me it is extremely useful as an impact note when playing rock and roll on my alto sax.
By comparison, the high E played using the conventional fingering with the palm keys and the side key pressed by my right hand is a much weaker note.

 

[DryMartini]

Playing high E is the entry point to altissimo notes.
For some of us, it is also a very powerful note. For me it is extremely useful as an impact note when playing rock and roll on my alto sax.
By comparison, the high E played using the conventional fingering with the palm keys and the side key pressed by my right hand is a much weaker note.

Yes Harmonizer I have felt this too.

 

[Saxray]

Great, thanks! I´ll try it out!

/Saxray