Padless Saxophone, anyone?

11603 Views 22 Replies 9 Participants Last post by milandro, Sep 24, 2012

milandro

Discussion Starter · Aug 3, 2007

I know of the unfortunate adventure and experiments of Selmer with this idea, but I was wondering if anyone had recently realized that the only reason why this pioneering project failed was because of lack of right materials at the time it was invented, so the keys were attached to metal discs which had nothing to seal the tonehole in the manner of a pad because the seal was entrusted to a leather ring on the tonehole itself. The leather ring was apparently the culprit and went easily out of allinement or dried out, therefore, the thing didn't work...not a s a sax, at most worked as a percussive instrument....but that was then in the WW II years. Now with modern technology it would be possible to use something different than leather ........like a silicon plastic ring or a neoprene (toptone) edge for the tonehole and toptone (again) thought of something similar but different on their top line titanium saxophone keys which are reminiscent of the keys of the padless selmer.

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

Randall

· #2 · Aug 3, 2007

Wolf Codera has.

milandro

Discussion Starter · #3 · Aug 3, 2007

had a look on the site and under products and saxophones there is nothing....what is it exactly?

BlueTone

· #4 · Aug 3, 2007

Funny you bring this up.
One of my Friends works for NASA (here in Florida)
We were talking about this same thing last night and he said that nowadays,
there are composite materials that form a pressure seal with as little as
a 1 ounce force.
I asked him "Yeah, but how long would they last?"
He said.."Oh..probably 8-10 years but then pad manufactures would be SOOL"
He's a real expect on sealing gaskets and such and further went on to say that building a Sax made out of these new Materials would not be that big of a problem..

Makes you wonder..

Randall

· #5 · Aug 3, 2007 (Edited)

Milandro, Wolf Codera came up with what he called the "resoblade" which was essentially a padless system. He studied the old Selmer patent for the padless sax and came up with a way to make a key that was a thin strip of metal that had a gasket on the key, not the tonehole (like the Selmer design).
He put his key system on B&S 2001 model horns and sold them as the "Codera" sax about 7 or 8 years ago (maybe a little longer..my memory is fuzzy on the date) and the main distributor was the Woodwind and Brasswind store. The WW&BW sold them for next to nothing when they wanted to get rid of stock.
I have played 4 of them..simply a superb system and incredible players. I bought a tenor for a student of mine which he still has.

Wolf got it right..the padless thunkety-thunk-thunk problem was solved and the horns are effortless to play and the action FAST!

gary

· #6 · Aug 3, 2007

A guy in a band I conduct plays a Codera and gets a great sound. I've played it and it's a good sax. I think there's a Dutch sax that also has this type mechanism. Can't remember the name but they're also good saxes.

Randall

· #7 · Aug 3, 2007

gary, those saxes are called "Toptone" and some of them feature a full "Resoblade" key system and some only a partial Resoblade system (on the bell keys).
I think the Saxofoonwinkel in Deventer Holland may still have one or two Toptones in stock. I played a full resoblade system bari there that was interesting, to say the least.

The Toptone horns should not be confused with the Toptone pads (which are indeed pads, not Resoblades).
To confuse matters more, on the Toptone SAXES that have a PARTIAL Resoblade key system, the remaining normal (ie: non-Resoblade keys) keys are fitted with Toptone PADS!:twisted:

I would love to have the Resoblade key system installed on every bari I own and end this ridiculously frequent bell key adjustment that I have repeatedly endured after a little transport.

milandro

Discussion Starter · #8 · Aug 3, 2007

Randall, I've seen and played Toptone equipped saxophones and the remaining toptone Top model with their special keys without cups. Still different forn the Selmer concept.

However the system which Selmer tought was better and aside the placing and mantaining of the gaskets rings it requires, in theory, no more adjustement.

Bluetone I believe your friend could be onto a winner if he would be able to do that. Especially because this system could dramatically reduce the weight of the pads. Perhaps Vibratosax (look it up within this forum) could be interested for his plastic saxophone.

Randall

· #9 · Aug 3, 2007

Randall, I've seen and played Toptone equipped saxophones and the remaining toptone Top model with their special keys without cups. Still different forn the Selmer concept.

Mil, these are the Resoblades....and yes, of course they are different from the Selmer design! Wolf improved upon the Selmer idea and took it to the next level.

Adjustment with the Resoblades is a non-issue. That is why I want them on my baris!

milandro

Discussion Starter · #10 · Aug 3, 2007

I am totally taken by the toptone saxophones and would buy one of the remaining ones. The only thing holding me back (beside the yes, even though mild) is the price a little higher than what I would want to spend for something unecessary since I have a very good alto........
Anyway I still think that a gasket ring placed on the tone chimney would be a better solution for the problem (and even better if someone would find a system for the key metal cup(?) to move in a perfectly orthogonal (or otherwise said, perpendicular) to close the vent.

milandro

Discussion Starter · #11 · Sep 17, 2012

2

after many years let me revive this thread

I have recently bought a Toptone TT 25 alto with titanium resoblades , the concept, I am now sure is very different from the B&S Codera.

I would like to know if anyone aside from Leopold Kondratov

http://www.meinsax.de/ueber mich.htm

has made any attempt to follow Codera since?

Is there is a way to establish if the Toptone patents could be revived (were there ever any patents?)

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milandro

Discussion Starter · #12 · Sep 21, 2012

2

so yes, there were many patents. I have just found out about the Toptone inventor, Rienk Smeding.

He has registered several world wide patents to his name concerning the Toptone system

It must have costed a pretty penny to do that and this might have been the nail in the coffin for the Toptone brand along with a very high production cost and limited sales scope for a system that was new and difficult to introduce in the, all in all, traditionalist world of saxophone.

Yet Rienk Smeding was one of the few true innovators in saxophone technology after the birth of this instrument and if his commercial acumen was as good as the technical one we could have seen more of it instead of this system being consigned to oblivion.

BTW this is my TT 25 Vintage alto

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rhysonsax

· #13 · Sep 21, 2012

I really like the look of your TopTone alto and it's a shame that they aren't made now. I'd like one to add to my collection.

The tenor that I have by Leopold Kondratov isn't a padless design at all. His concept has conventional pads held in the cups which, similar to your TopTone, are all connected to the mechanism via a central pivot. On Leopold's design, this pivot can either be left freely moving or it can be locked off when the cup is in the correct position to seal the pad all the way around. On my tenor the pivots are all locked and it seals and plays well.

Rhys

milandro

Discussion Starter · #14 · Sep 21, 2012

Hallo Rhys , yes, I’ve met Leopold in Frankfurt and have seen his sax, indeed it wasn’t a padless sax but it had some similarities with a toptone.

Who knows maybe after a while I will sell the toptone for the right price

..........

LowThudd

· #15 · Sep 21, 2012

Extremely nice looking horn, and very cool design! While surfing, I found an article on a Chinese made cupless, and synthetic pad sax. More than likely a knockoff design. But I thought it might have intrest in this thread. http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/misc/frankfurt2008.htm (about half way down the page).

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milandro

Discussion Starter · #16 · Sep 21, 2012

yes, we all saw that one i Frankfurt 3 years ago (or was it 4?). It then disappeared in later editions. The main difference between this and the Toptone would have been that this has only a tick neoprene disk attached to the mechanics (can’t remember if it had anything which would pivot) but no resoblade

SchlockRod

· #17 · Sep 21, 2012

BlueTone said:
Funny you bring this up.
One of my Friends works for NASA (here in Florida)
We were talking about this same thing last night and he said that nowadays,
there are composite materials that form a pressure seal with as little as
a 1 ounce force.
I asked him "Yeah, but how long would they last?"
He said.."Oh..probably 8-10 years but then pad manufactures would be SOOL"
He's a real expect on sealing gaskets and such and further went on to say that building a Sax made out of these new Materials would not be that big of a problem..

Makes you wonder..

Are these materials made by Morton Thiokol?
And would we have to keep the sax above a certain temperature?

rhythmisking

· #18 · Sep 21, 2012

Milandro, what's the key action/feel like?

rhysonsax

· #19 · Sep 21, 2012

milandro said:
Hallo Rhys , yes, I've met Leopold in Frankfurt and have seen his sax, indeed it wasn't a padless sax but it had some similarities with a toptone.

Who knows maybe after a while I will sell the toptone for the right price ..........

Get thee behind me (but remember to bring the TopTone if you ever come to the UK).

Rhys

milandro

Discussion Starter · #20 · Sep 21, 2012

rhythmisking said:
Milandro, what's the key action/feel like?

Actually I cannot really feel any real difference with a " normal" sax but remember the talks of sponginess of neoprene are normally based on much thicker neoprene pads, the TT 25 " resoblade" model has thickness of neoprene that seems to be inferior to 1mm and has the hard backing of the titanium resoblade. The sax feels also lighter than a " normal " sax.

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

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