[Figaro]

In another post in the Holton forum I mentioned this Ebay find.

I've done plenty of gas welding metal work, jewelry making, electric guitar and bass building, string instrument repair and upright piano restoration so these skills should be well suited to working on this instrument. I'm also a life long musician and recently started learning sax with a beater Bundy II that I have a new set of pads for, but that's for another thread.

I thought I would share this endeavor so I can learn along the way from experience and hopefully some tips from members here. When it's all done it'll be a good reference for a beginner repair "tech".

Today I disassembled "Encina" (the name painted on the case, see pics) in preparation to repair a few loose items, install new pads the regulate it.

There's one loose post that took a pretty good hit at some point. It depressed the body a bit so first order of business is to push that back out then align and solder it. There's also a couple of tone holes that are leaking having come loose from the solder joint to the body. After that some tone hole leveling, dent removal, straightening a few things and a good cleaning and polish then assembly.

The red things in the photo are pieces of plastic tubing from a WD40 can cut and slid over ALL springs.

That's the plan...

 

[1saxman]

I like the 'straw' sections on the spring tips! That is a great idea that just solved a little problem for me. If that thing has soldered-in tone holes, fixing them can be difficult. The problem is avoiding melting the solder in adjacent tone holes and posts. At least from here the tone holes don't look thick like the soldered-on ones usually are, with a beveled or tapered rim. They look like standard drawn tone holes but I can see a parting line so I guess they are separate pieces. It may be that they were brazed in with silver rather than 'soft-soldered'. That changes things but it still most likely will be your biggest problem.

 

[saxoclese]

It is always a good idea to build a good relationship with a professional repair tech to have a "back up" when you run into a problem you can't solve. There is a wealth of information in the repair book by Stephen Howard, and also in the many articles by Curt Altarac on the Music Medic website. In addition there are several experienced techs who participate regularly on SOTW who can try to answer any questions you might have. Good luck on your journey.

 

[Bkenes]

Seems to be in pretty good shape. Take your time and do it well. Be smart and ask for professional help when needed!

 

[Figaro]

So last night I spent a good deal of time measuring for new pads down to a tolerance of .5mm. Ordered a full set from Music Medic. I chose soft pads because they have an element of "forgiveness" if a tone hole is a bit off. Of course I'll do my best to regulate everything properly when the time comes.

Once that was done I got down to a few repairs. I managed to do a fair job of soldering the loose tone holes in place and they passed a leak light test.

Had a pesky screw that was all buggered. Got a slot of sorts in it with a Dremel and removed it. A bit of filing and cutting a new slot with a jewelers saw and it was back to new.

Next up is this loose post with a depression under it. Dent out first so time to make a tool.

 

[JayeLID]

It is always a good idea to build a good relationship with a professional repair tech to have a "back up" when you run into a problem you can't solve. There is a wealth of information in the repair book by Stephen Howard, and also in the many articles by Curt Altarac on the Music Medic website. In addition there are several experienced techs who participate regularly on SOTW who can try to answer any questions you might have. Good luck on your journey.

Well-put.

When I started DIY'ing, I actually also utilized local techs for jobs which needed doing which I had not yet acquired the tools nor expertise to do myself.
Initially this was bodywork (dent removal, hole leveling, pulldown repair, and soldering).
After maybe a half dozen horns, I bought some dent rods and balls. After another 3 or 4, I invested in tonehole files.
A few horns later, I needed some soldering work done and none of my techs were available to help me do it for a week or so, so trial by fire, I just went for it myself, having watched them in person several times.

So, Necessity becomes the Mother, so to speak.

But....FWIW, Figaro....since you have the horn all broken down like that...instead of just padding it if some holes aren't level, you should take the body to a tech and have them level the holes. It'd be a slam-dunk quick job and they'd probably be overjoyed that they don't have to disassemble and reassemble anything.

MM soft feel pads, despite their name, are NOT soft. They are straight-up medium firmness. They will not be 'forgiving' on unlevel holes....If the holes remain unlevel, then you are left with pad shimming, keycup bending, and prick floating as your available arsenal. Not bad, but not optimal for a beginning sax-repairer.
It'd be more straightforward if you started with level holes.

Nice work so far....

 

[Figaro]

Thanks for the feedback JayeLID. If I had a tech nearby I would probably take it in for leveling of tone holes. Closest is probably 60 miles away in Raleigh so I'll see how level things are before I do that. I have some very flat & small tool steel pieces at work in my machine shop. I'll be bringing one home to check how level the tone holes are, or aren't. Guess I'll decide on a course of action at that point. Agree that since it's all disassembled leveling all for a tech would be a breeze.

Good to know about the "soft pads" being medium. I certainly don't want to rely on them to make up for uneven tone holes so I'll do what it takes to get them right. I believe this horn is worth the effort.

 

[JayeLID]

Thanks for the feedback JayeLID. If I had a tech nearby I would probably take it in for leveling of tone holes. Closest is probably 60 miles away in Raleigh so I'll see how level things are before I do that. I have some very flat & small tool steel pieces at work in my machine shop. I'll be bringing one home to check how level the tone holes are, or aren't. Guess I'll decide on a course of action at that point. Agree that since it's all disassembled leveling all for a tech would be a breeze.

Good to know about the "soft pads" being medium. I certainly don't want to rely on them to make up for uneven tone holes so I'll do what it takes to get them right. I believe this horn is worth the effort.

There is a cheapie apparatus you can rig up for leveling holes, which wouldn't require spending several hundred dollars on a set of bona-fide professional files.

Just buy a square anvil, like this kind:

https://www.ferreestoolsinc.com/products/l20-bench-leveling-block

then get some 180, 220, 400 grit sandpaper. Just stretch the paper over the anvil and use that as your tonehole file. It works. You might not be able to get to the small holes however, given the size of the block anvil. But you can turn it on edge, too.

It'll be a good horn when done. Keep at it.

 

[turf3]

I would predict that - unless there are major dents - the tone holes are dead flat, because they are not drawn from the body material but instead are cut from tubing and soldered down. Truthfully, I'm going to predict that even if you had major dents, the soft-soldered tone holes would probably pop loose from the body before they'd warp or bend.

 

[Figaro]

I had an idea jump into my head today about tone hole filing and I had a good evening of work on "Encina".

A picture is worth a thousand words, but yeah. Adhesive sanding paper, a few fender washers, some allen bolts, three ball end allen wrenches and my 3D printer... and I've got a custom set of tone hole files for this one off project for less than $10.

It works great, AND I get to make an arbor that fits the tone hole perfectly with my 3D printer in only 8 minutes.

I've done three so far. One was ok, second had one very minor low spot and the third was the one I soldered yesterday. It was low on one side and required a bit of filing. About 10 seconds worth to be exact and it was flat again. I followed up with some 400 grit paper to take away the sharp edges. Once I'm done with all I'll go back with some 0000 steel wool to polish the edge that meets the pad.

 

[pontius]

Very resourceful.! Undoubtedly some of us are going to question how "flat" a common stamped fender washer is, but if it works, it works. Had it crossed your minds to hone one side of the washers on a jewlers anvil with some sandpaper?

 

[Figaro]

They are very flat, and flat enough. Hadn't considered honing the washer. They're being guided by the arbor anyway so any imperfection isn't going to be transferred to the tone hole. Seems to do the job quite well.

 

[JayeLID]

I had an idea jump into my head today about tone hole filing and I had a good evening of work on "Encina".

A picture is worth a thousand words, but yeah. Adhesive sanding paper, a few fender washers, some allen bolts, three ball end allen wrenches and my 3D printer... and I've got a custom set of tone hole files for this one off project for less than $10.

It works great, AND I get to make an arbor that fits the tone hole perfectly with my 3D printer in only 8 minutes.

Nice job.

 

[saxoclese]

From time to time I re-flatten the backs of my brass tonehole disks using a technique my mentor showed me. You need a perfectly flat 12" x 12" marble/granite slab. I had mine cut from a scrap at a place that makes marble countertops for $20. You use a sheet of wet or dry paper on top of the slab and move the disk across it in different directions ending with a figure 8. I usually start with 400 grit and then go to 600, 800, and 1,000. You can see visually how flat the surface is by the evenness of "pattern" made by the paper. Sometimes I will put a bit of contact cement on my fingertips to add to the friction needed to move the disk.

 

[turf3]

The thing I'd be concerned with about using stamped fender washers, is if the washer is potato chip shaped (two high spots and two low spots) then the high spots could follow the out-of-flatness of the tone hole, so you end up more or less duplicating the tone hole out-of-flatness, only a bit lower down.

I would lap the washers flat on a surface plate first, myself.

 

[Figaro]

The thing I'd be concerned with about using stamped fender washers, is if the washer is potato chip shaped (two high spots and two low spots) then the high spots could follow the out-of-flatness of the tone hole, so you end up more or less duplicating the tone hole out-of-flatness, only a bit lower down.

I would lap the washers flat on a surface plate first, myself.

I thought about that, and before I started I marked the surface of the tone hole with a black Sharpie marker. I put the hone in and gave it a quick spin. It showed the low spot on the tone hole because it left some of the marker there but it went away on the high spot. After a few more quick spins stopping to check each time, the low spot got smaller and smaller until the entire surface was honed flat.

New pads are getting delivered today so I can give it a check with the leak light and a pad resting on the surface with no pressure on it. I figure that if I don't see any light, I'm good to go. We'll see.

 

[Figaro]

More time at the bench this evening. I've got 12 tone holes leveled. My home made "files" aren't working too bad. I find they work better if I go slow with the RPMs. I've been going back with a leak light and a flat washer over the hole to check level. I rotate the washer around to eliminate the possibility of it being not flat but it seems to be true enough.

I fashioned a single source leak light from some LED strip lighting I bought on Amazon. It runs on 12 VDC and you can cut it to what ever length you like. I put some on the end of a stick so I can concentrate the light over the hole I'm checking without having a lot of light coming through the nearby holes making it difficult to see. It's very handy.

Time to go clean up the kitchen and head off to bed soon.

 

[Figaro]

The thing I'd be concerned with about using stamped fender washers, is if the washer is potato chip shaped (two high spots and two low spots) then the high spots could follow the out-of-flatness of the tone hole, so you end up more or less duplicating the tone hole out-of-flatness, only a bit lower down.

I would lap the washers flat on a surface plate first, myself.

Right you are turf3. I checked them today and discovered that they do have some deviation. I have since honed all of them flat with 400 grit sand paper on a piece of plate glass. Now I'm starting over with tone hole filing. Already see a few that needed work due to the "potato chip"syndrome.

 

[saxoclese]

I thought about that, and before I started I marked the surface of the tone hole with a black Sharpie marker. I put the hone in and gave it a quick spin. It showed the low spot on the tone hole because it left some of the marker there but it went away on the high spot. After a few more quick spins stopping to check each time, the low spot got smaller and smaller until the entire surface was honed flat.

New pads are getting delivered today so I can give it a check with the leak light and a pad resting on the surface with no pressure on it. I figure that if I don't see any light, I'm good to go. We'll see.

As you do this more I think you will discover that just because the "Sharpie" is no longer visible, it doesn't always mean the tonehole is perfectly flat. In my experience it gets you in the "ball park". I have done this countless times and then checked with a flat brass disk with a bright leak light in a dark room and found a bit more "flattening" with the file to be needed. I think this may be more common on saxes with walls and drawn toneholes that are thinner than those that are soldered on.

 

[Figaro]

Enjoying a nice day in my workshop working on the Holton. After honing the washers flat I'm having MUCH better results. There were a few that I hadn't done yet that were off by quite a bit.

This is the E key, or is it Eb? Also know as the #6 key. Anyway, I'm learning the key names as I go and this is an Eb alto. Anyway, this one had a huge leak!

After quite a bit of filing.

Earlier today I soldered up that loose post after getting the dent below it pushed out using a piece of steel round stock with a rounded end. Worked great. Heat sinked the surrounding area with wet terrycloth.

Also did some work on the bent bell with a block of wood clamped in the vice and a 1.5" wood dowel. I worked slowly and got it back to an acceptable shape. Took about 15 minutes of diligent work.
The area with the silver worn off is where it was bent. I wonder what caused the silver to wear so much in this location?

Got a few more to go and the tone holes will be level. I'll go back over them all and put a slight bevel on them to get rid of the shape edges.