[Figaro]

New thread to chronicle the work on this beast. Pretty much copy pasted the first part of this post from the King forum.

This is a 1917-18 H.N. White baritone saxophone that I found on eBay. It came from New Orleans and was sold by the daughter of Dennis

It's in exceptionally good condition considering its age. It has very old pre-rivet pads with a simple stitch in the middle to hold the leather in place. Original perhaps? I guess that's possible under the right conditions. Disassembly will reveal more. Most pads are rotted through, one has a piece of leather stuck on it as a quick fix for a leak I suspect. Others down low are torn and not sealing well.

Very few dents. The crook took a good hit at some point which I think slightly bent the main body section just a bit. The lyre holder got bent and dimpled the body. Lower key guards are bent and missing a few bits. The bow has no major dents. It's built like a tank!

The bell looks like it never had any significant damage. Body/bell brace is slightly pulled away from the body and needs a re-solder as does the neck brace and a post on the upper stack.

The octave mechanism actually works! I put some cork on the neck, slapped a Yamaha 5C mp on it with a Rico 2.5 reed and managed to get some notes all the way down to the bottom. Had to squeeze really hard on the keys. The tone is there. It just needs some love on the work bench.

After disassembly. it's evident that the main body has been bent slightly deforming a few tone holes. This will be challenging to correct but I'm up for it. Also have some nasty stuff to clean from a few tone holes and some soldering work to do.
I believe this horn is worth the effort required to bring it back to playable condition. Looking forward to the work.

 

[PigSquealer]

From your other post that definitely looks like an original pad. Overall it doesn’t look bad. All the parts are there so that’s a great start. Other than a few dings and dents it only needs everything else fixed lol. Few months of TLC and you’ll have a great Christmas present..
Looking forward to the overhaul/ resto.

 

[Figaro]

It's Spa Day for The Doctor. Soaking in warm water with dish detergent and Pinesol. He's gonna stay here all day while we go out for a much needed hike in the woods.

 

[JayeLID]

While I'd say your previous two patients were worthy...I think this one may end up being nothing other than a labor of love.

I believe this horn is worth the effort required to bring it back to playable condition.

If it matters, once done you might be able to sell her for $500-600. Providing, in the end, she intones up and down OK.
Fixed neck, only keyed up to Eb. So that you acquired it for cheap isn't much of a surprise.

Conventionally the way to correct body tube damage on a baritone is to get a dent rod and ball in there. The thing is, unlike S,A,T...there is no 'open' end on a baritone.....so the usual way to get a rod into the tube is to unsolder and remove either the upper bow or the lower bow/bellpiece. Given there are no dents to lower bow but are dents to upper bow/crook (did I get that right ?), the candidate would be disassembly of the upper bow, IMHO. This way you access the tube AND you can remove the dents/dings from upper bow/crook.

I suppose an OK project to cut your chops on a baritone. I think generally even on a cheap-to-acquire Bari, one looks for removable neck and a side F key if their intention is to end up with a marketable finished product, particularly since on the bighorn its really important to be able to set the neck angle for a player. So she's anachronistic as a player's horn.

It may well look very pretty when done - the plating looks pretty darn good
Best of luck, will keep an eye on your progress.

 

[Figaro]

Thanks for the feedback JayLID. :thumbrig:

I'm a fan of "abandoned and lost puppies" and this a lost old dog.

After watching this video, I decided to try this technique on this horn. However as you mentioned JayLID, the crook prevents access to the top of the body without removal. I didn't want to get into all that, and I'm not after a perfect restoration to sell, just a playable horn to add to the stable.

So, I made this tool and it worked great! After some careful whacks against the cinder block, checking progress each time, I have the tone holes all in good alignment now.

I also got after the bent lyre post. I managed to pull most of the dent out just by pulling on the post. I actually soldered an old piece of brass rod to the remaining dent and pulled it out even more. Then I straightened out the base of the post and soldered it in place.

It was bent in pretty bad and I believe that this damage resulted in the body getting bent.

As far as the other minor dents in the crook, I managed to pull one out in the same way I did the lyre post. IMO, those dents aren't worth the trouble of taking it all apart to repair. I'm just going to live with them as is.

 

[Figaro]

Couldn't resist a little test polish..

 

[PigSquealer]

Ok you've officially scared the -ell out of me with you Wack-A-Mole tool. Yes gentle & careful. Blink and kink the body is hard to recover.
You also have great experience in repairing Craftsmanship. Great job on the fix. Just not a easy one for the inexperienced DIY guy.
Good call on bow dent. Old school style. I'm looking into a more modern approach. https://www.amazon.com/Repair-Paintless-Remover-Refrigerator-Removal/dp/B08596WL25
I agree with JAYELID. Plating looks good. Some light Touch up work with a electroplate wand may be worthy.
I assume you're playing for enjoyment. If you can't find the right note you'll just play another one

Oddly everyone cleans the engraving area first. Lol, resistance is futile

Short Or fast hike Eh.

 

[JfW]

What would have been a better tool for straightening? I personally have had some success using ferree's version of the whack-a-sax on a bari project.

Anyways, I think devil lays in those tonehole rims. Are they too high? too low? both? I am perplexed as to what what should be done there. Choose wrong and you permanently alter the tuning, or you could go insane trying to contour pads to that.

 

[Figaro]

What would have been a better tool for straightening? I personally have had some success using ferree's version of the whack-a-sax on a bari project.

Anyways, I think devil lays in those tonehole rims. Are they too high? too low? both? I am perplexed as to what what should be done there. Choose wrong and you permanently alter the tuning, or you could go insane trying to contour pads to that.

They're all dead even now with only slight distortion on the middle one. I may be able to coax it up a little more with a hand made tool I have. Kind of a mini slide hammer. After that, tone hole leveling will do.

 

[PigSquealer]

What would have been a better tool for straightening? I personally have had some success using ferree's version of the whack-a-sax on a bari project.

Anyways, I think devil lays in those tonehole rims. Are they too high? too low? both? I am perplexed as to what what should be done there. Choose wrong and you permanently alter the tuning, or you could go insane trying to contour pads to that.

I have no problem with the tool or the craftsman using it. Could be disastrous for the DIY operator. A good eye and sense of feel is important.

There is no reason to remove so much tone hole material that tuning is altered. Start by lifting the chimneys back into place.
GENTLEY using slide Puller https://www.tools-plus.com/proto-j4290b.html
Or block tool like this JL Smith. https://www.jlsmithco.com/product/jls-sax-tone-hole-lift-set/
https://www.facebook.com/JLSco/videos/making-parts-for-our-jls-tone-hole-lift-set/1661834043864088/

 

[Figaro]

I have no problem with the tool or the craftsman using it. Could be disastrous for the DIY operator. A good eye and sense of feel is important.

There is no reason to remove so much tone hole material that tuning is altered. Start by lifting the chimneys back into place.
GENTLEY using slide Puller https://www.tools-plus.com/proto-j4290b.html
Or block tool like this JL Smith. https://www.jlsmithco.com/product/jls-sax-tone-hole-lift-set/
https://www.facebook.com/JLSco/videos/making-parts-for-our-jls-tone-hole-lift-set/1661834043864088/

Hmmm, I have a 3D printer. I think I'll make myself a set of those lifter blocks. Looks like a great way to get the job done.

 

[turf3]

I'd be thinking about the design of a receiver and tenon to un-fix the neck. Any competent machine shop can make the parts up from brass if you give them good drawings.

 

[JayeLID]

So, I made this tool and it worked great! After some careful whacks against the cinder block, checking progress each time, I have the tone holes all in good alignment now.

Ok you've officially scared the -ell out of me with you Wack-A-Mole tool.

Actually, all Figaro did was make a home, wood version of what is an avaialble professional rig (but made of metal, not wood) which most techs have in their arsenal, as JfW notes. Good job there.

...As far as the other minor dents in the crook, I managed to pull one out in the same way I did the lyre post. IMO, those dents aren't worth the trouble of taking it all apart to repair. I'm just going to live with them as is.

Right, and this is why, in around 75% of vintage baris out there, they have dents and dings up and down their bodies and slightly bent tubes and all of that....because, basically, their techs and owners made the same decision you have made: "it probably doesn't effect playability, so it's not worth the trouble".

Coming from a refurber's perspective, and just playing a bit of Devil's Advocate here....the counter-argument is:

a) one is doing a full-on refurb of this instrument in ALL other aspects - cleaning, hole leveling, keywork servicing, pads, corks, felts, final regulation. This will be the ONLY point in this horn's remaining life where correcting the body damage and getting the geometry back to where it should be...is at least a quasi-convenient scope of work to embark upon with the horn body in its current state.

b) it is silverplate, therefore (unlike lacq) disassembly of the pieces and resoldering of the repaired pieces will not result in any negative aesthetics, as silverplate doesn't burn off like lacq does. (Typically bellbrace and bow/crook repairs result in those soldered seam areas now being bare brass (or spot lacquered), which aesthetically always looks apparent.

c) so besides it being only high Eb, a fixed neck, and having no front F, it now will remain with some significant dings and such as well. Which makes her a bit less desireable than if the body geometry had been corrected. So at the end of the day, some maladies remain which could have been attended to but weren't due to convenience.

(Again ....I admittedly am busting your you-know-whats here a bit...but only because to a restorer - it seems a missed opp to me to not bring her all the way back. But it (avoiding the tricky stuff) is, as I have said, the sort of decision even most pro techs would make, particularly on what is gonna end up being a low-value horn, so.....)

 

[JayeLID]

I'd be thinking about the design of a receiver and tenon to un-fix the neck. Any competent machine shop can make the parts up from brass if you give them good drawings.

You could do that actually, it is quite doable - and perhaps not even a machine shop would be needed to make the custom pieces; there are prefab receivers and tenons available out there....it'd just be a matter of making sure you got really accurate measurements of the tubes you are gonna glom the pieces on to, and also you'd need to make sure you didn't add or subtract length from the whole area at the end of the day.

 

[turf3]

You could do that actually, it is quite doable - and perhaps not even a machine shop would be needed to make the custom pieces; there are prefab receivers and tenons available out there....it'd just be a matter of making sure you got really accurate measurements of the tubes you are gonna glom the pieces on to, and also you'd need to make sure you didn't add or subtract length from the whole area at the end of the day.

And if you added an eighth of an inch or so it wouldn't be the end of the world as these things probably want a large chamber piece not to play sharp, so a teeny bit extra neck length will probably be welcome (not my usual stance on the issue).

 

[Figaro]

(Again ....I admittedly am busting your you-know-whats here a bit...but only because to a restorer - it seems a missed opp to me to not bring her all the way back. But it (avoiding the tricky stuff) is, as I have said, the sort of decision even most pro techs would make, particularly on what is gonna end up being a low-value horn, so.....)

Haha... balls are there to be busted. No worries.
I get what you're saying. I see this on "restored" cars quite often and I say to myself "why didn't they fix X while they were in there??"

At some point down the line, it wouldn't be that much of a task to go ahead and take apart the crook and fix things proper. I may do that. It would only involve taking apart the octave mechanism and protecting things up top from heat and flame. I might even do a removable neck and add a spit valve! All fun future projects. For now, I'll get it playing and see where we go from there.

 

[JfW]

Hmmm, I have a 3D printer. I think I'll make myself a set of those lifter blocks. Looks like a great way to get the job done.

It will probably be a good thing since for most of the larger holes, the blocks are too small in the JL Smith set. I believe the Ferrees "Dent Rod Guides" are about the same size.

I have no problem with the tool or the craftsman using it. Could be disastrous for the DIY operator. A good eye and sense of feel is important.

There is no reason to remove so much tone hole material that tuning is altered. Start by lifting the chimneys back into place.
GENTLEY using slide Puller https://www.tools-plus.com/proto-j4290b.html
Or block tool like this JL Smith. https://www.jlsmithco.com/product/jls-sax-tone-hole-lift-set/
https://www.facebook.com/JLSco/videos/making-parts-for-our-jls-tone-hole-lift-set/1661834043864088/

Yep! I have the JL Smith lifting tool. It is interesting to see them make the rims, however, I have a serious issue with the mandrel they provide. It looks like a repurposed, cheap, jewelry re-sizer and in using it, I found it easy to mar the underside of body. Most of the time I obtained better results from a curved hand burnisher.

Lifting the rims would be my first choice too, but my question when I see rims like that centers on what the right amount of metal is. How high out those chimneys to be? Did the factory take off too much or not enough? If tone holes were not cut low enough to begin with, i see no problem cutting them down.

 

[Figaro]

First let me say, Hagerty Silver Foam is amazing! 5 minutes with a toothbrush, rinse in warm water then 2 minutes with a polishing cloth and SHINY! Plus, no add scratches from polish which is what I went through with the Holton.

Looks like these pads are original. 100% wool felt with leather wrap and a single stitch in the middle. Looks like hide glue was holding it in as it got soft in water.
I love the quickie repair that was done to one pad to keep it playing. Simple solution and I have to wonder how it affected regulation. Probably just a quick bend of the key arm and on with the show. I love the stories old instruments have to tell.

And you can file this under "strange things found inside a saxophone"

 

[saxoclese]

The "tonehole lifter" tools my mentor called "tonehole jacks" are effective except to raise the fronts of the toneholes on the lower stack where the bell prevents inserting the "handle". Since I work with the Votaw sax work fixture I came up with a way to raise those areas without having to take the sax off the fixture to use dent rods. I modified the Ferree's slide hammer with a small dent ball on the end. With the tonehole facing down, I hold the ball firmly under the low area with my thumb and use the slide hammer and gravity to "tap" the side of the tonehole up.

 

[AddictedToSax]

That wooly stuff looks like the rats found a place to hide out.