Sax on the Web Forum banner

Otto Link prototype or deep fake?

5K views 30 replies 10 participants last post by  Horned Toad 
#1 ·
Ok crowd, here is what is alleged to be a "first series" super tone master, super rare 4-ring Link. Forget the fact that it has had some work done, but it has no NY manufacture stamp on the bottom of the shank, no "serial no." stamp above the serial, no "reg. patent" info on the other side. And then the "Super" ABOVE the "ToneMaster" stamp. What is this?

https://www.saxquest.com/product/vi...ter-double-band-early-new-york-vintage-P13092

Maybe it is real, maybe a prototype with no extensive stamp and info for sale, or maybe not?
I know there are folks who know more about this than me, let's hear your thoughts.
Thanks
 
#2 ·
I've seen other ones similar to this and it appears to be the real deal.

Another interesting fact aside from no NY stamp is the bite plate. It's the size of the later Florida pieces not the NY and transitional NY pieces which had the incredibly big / long bite plates.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
 
#3 ·
I've seen other ones similar to this and it appears to be the real deal.

Another interesting fact aside from no NY stamp is the bite plate. It's the size of the later Florida pieces not the NY and transitional NY pieces which had the incredibly big / long bite plates.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Can you elaborate on what you have seen that is similar to this? Did they also not have the stamping info?
Regarding the biteplate being short, that was less alarming to me. The later Tonemasters did not have a long biteplate so it seems normal that the first transitional pieces also would not.

Here are some pics from Wanne's museum of another 4-ring. Notice this also has the short biteplate, yet it also has additional stamping that is not seen on the one I posed.

https://33ixja257n934eggmj1qe0no-wp.../uploads/2017/03/Double-Band-Transitional.png

?
 
#7 ·
Serial # is clearly seen as "V20" on the left side of the shank. I've never seen one of these before, but to my eye, it looks like the real deal. I wonder what astronomic price it went for?
Another person here on the forum wondered if he has an "incomplete" Reso Chamber. There's similar stuff missing from the shank on his Reso. I believe late run Reso's didn't have some of the typical Link "wording" on the shank. Just like this one, I still believe it's legit.
 
#9 ·
I'm with John in this, but find it strange that the tip stamp is not visible anymore on the table (the reface does seem light, so you would expect the stamp still to be visible). Also the lack of other Tone Master marks is strange.

I'm afraid we don't have too many examples of these to really know exactly how they have looked in the different development stage of the early DR.

The plating under the gold plating could give some information (the NY Link's had silver under the gold and the later Florida models had nickel, so this one also should have silver). If it has nickel under the gold it's probably a fake. I own an original early NY Double Ring 4* which has almost exactly the same markings as the late Tone Masters, so to me it's a bit strange that the in between Four Band Link doesn't have those markings.

But as mentioned, we don't know too much about those models and the piece itself looks like a real vintage Otto Link.

- Theo Wanne information: https://www.saxquest.com/uploads/images/products/gallery_view/13092DSC05287.jpg
- Ebay auction of this piece: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/First-Se...rentrq:f9102bc616c0ac3d13262315ffdb3e0f|iid:1
 
#10 ·
Well, I actually bought this piece. Now that I have had some time and close examination of it, it is for sure authentic. The odd lack of stamping I can only guess means it was a prototype blank, maybe not intended for sale. The gold plating is undoubtably original and it shows machining as well so it has never been buffed. I've done some cleanup on it and made a video etc. it is an exceptionally good playing and interesting piece.
 
#12 ·
Nice video and photo's Marin.

I'm not sure about your proto-type conclusion. It has serial number W20 and you would expect the first ones to start with A or even a 1 (I have a NY DR with a serial number starting with 1). You could assume that serial W20 would have had predecessor pieces with lower serial numbers (both letters and numbers).

Maybe it was just a rejected piece where Otto Link didn't finished the complete stamping on (with the exception of the serial number). Another option could be that someone took it or bought it from the shop (visiting Otto Link) before he finished all the stamping.
 
#13 ·
Good stuff, Marin! For what it's worth, I completely agree there was most likely never a facing # stamped on the bottom of the table. As you very well know, those stamps were usually pretty deep and to take enough metal off the table to completely make it disappear just isn't likely. Mouthpieces and horns with mysteries like that are both fascinating and maddening at the same time!
 
#16 ·
Yes that was my thinking as well. I really studied it to see if there was ANY evidence of a stamp having been sanded off. Having restored a rather large number of vintage Links in my years I understand exactly the circumstances of a table stamp disappearing. One has to take off a pretty thick layer of metal to have all the evidence gone. That would be easily enough metal to really drastically reduce the tip size. This piece has not been shortened and the tip is pretty thick and we are still in the 6* range which makes the idea of that table having been so drastically reduced a bit of an impossibility.

Besides the table stamp, the side stamps also not being present and showing zero evidence of removal and with the original gold.. even less likely that anything was done on the table stamp.
 
#17 ·
Great video, great sound!

Your handling of the mouthpiece while you were talking though kept on the edge of my chair! "please don't drop it!" spinning through my head.
Oh, hahaha well I was holding over a low table. I have a physical ruleset for handling these things because it has been so many years. I move slowly and always have positive contact. No worries.
 
#20 ·
You can also see in the serial number list of the first NY Double Ring models that Nicolas reports several mouthpieces without "New York"on the shank or tip size on the table, like your new Link also misses some of the stamps (so that seems less rare than we assume).

https://www.nicolastrefeil.com/stm-double-ring-1949
 
#23 ·
Keep in mind that at the time this mouthpiece was made, the Otto Link Company was a small shop making handmade mouthpieces. Otto Link himself was most likely finishing all the mouthpieces. While most of the pieces made will be very similar, there would have been customized pieces made for certain customers. There would have been short runs of pieces as the models evolve. There were B-stock, cosmetic blem pieces, store samples, etc. that may have been finished out. It is easy to think of the Otto Link Company as this big mouthpiece company that has always produced thousands of mouthpieces, but back then, it was a small shop run by craftsmen. Today, the Babbitt Company is probably not going to make any one-off pieces for individual customers, but back then Otto Link would have.

We do the same at the Morgan Company. Since all pieces are handmade by craftsmen, we sometimes customize pieces for customers and these are usually marked differently or sometimes they don't have a serial number. We have short runs as pieces evolve cosmetically...for example, the first bunch of GM Baritone Models have a smaller ring on the shank. The markings change from time to time, etc. Every few years, we finish out some cosmetically blemished blanks and mark them differently, etc.
 
#24 ·
It's also important to note I think that while we have this idea that "X Otto Link" was followed by "Y Otto Link" was followed by "Z Otto Link", when you look at the lists of mouthpieces we have info/serial numbers for, it's quite a bit more jumbled up that we think. We tend to think that only early double rings have long bite plates, but some of the later serials do as well, and that only transitional double rings have both the table stamp AND no "New York" on the shank but those features come and go quite a bit through the full double ring run. It can make it difficult to establish exactly what you're looking at because of how inconsistent they can be.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were a number of odd blanks and casting that showed up over the years and were made into finished mouthpieces, the "triple" (quad?) ring pieces included.
 
#25 ·
I had a baritone version of the Triple Ring, had no tip stamping anywhere either, in spite of being totally original. Like Coltrane's Link, it said "Tone Master" instead of being an STM. In spite of being called "Triple," they're never really triple though, so think it's a misnomer. Coltrane's "Triple" definitely doesn't have just 3 rings.

Been searching high and low for one of these in tenor (transitional alto Tone Masters are far more common), let me know if you ever sell...
 
#27 ·
Are you sure about that? The early alto Links have a different shape and shank milling which (to me) always makes them look like a different model or design, even when they are just normal double ring or tonemasters. But anyhow at the moment I am not looking to sell this. I waited 30+ years to find a "missing Link" and never expected to. I actually have been playing mostly Bergs and EB/late FL HR Links for some years and never expected to return to an early metal Link but this one plays so great I have been bitten.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top