Sax on the Web Forum banner

1 - 20 of 31 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,728 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Ok crowd, here is what is alleged to be a "first series" super tone master, super rare 4-ring Link. Forget the fact that it has had some work done, but it has no NY manufacture stamp on the bottom of the shank, no "serial no." stamp above the serial, no "reg. patent" info on the other side. And then the "Super" ABOVE the "ToneMaster" stamp. What is this?

https://www.saxquest.com/product/vi...ter-double-band-early-new-york-vintage-P13092

Maybe it is real, maybe a prototype with no extensive stamp and info for sale, or maybe not?
I know there are folks who know more about this than me, let's hear your thoughts.
Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,453 Posts
I've seen other ones similar to this and it appears to be the real deal.

Another interesting fact aside from no NY stamp is the bite plate. It's the size of the later Florida pieces not the NY and transitional NY pieces which had the incredibly big / long bite plates.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,728 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I've seen other ones similar to this and it appears to be the real deal.

Another interesting fact aside from no NY stamp is the bite plate. It's the size of the later Florida pieces not the NY and transitional NY pieces which had the incredibly big / long bite plates.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Can you elaborate on what you have seen that is similar to this? Did they also not have the stamping info?
Regarding the biteplate being short, that was less alarming to me. The later Tonemasters did not have a long biteplate so it seems normal that the first transitional pieces also would not.

Here are some pics from Wanne's museum of another 4-ring. Notice this also has the short biteplate, yet it also has additional stamping that is not seen on the one I posed.

https://33ixja257n934eggmj1qe0no-wp.../uploads/2017/03/Double-Band-Transitional.png

?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,453 Posts
Can you elaborate on what you have seen that is similar to this? Did they also not have the stamping info?
Regarding the biteplate being short, that was less alarming to me. The later Tonemasters did not have a long biteplate so it seems normal that the first transitional pieces also would not.

Here are some pics from Wanne's museum of another 4-ring. Notice this also has the short biteplate, yet it also has additional stamping that is not seen on the one I posed.

https://33ixja257n934eggmj1qe0no-wp.../uploads/2017/03/Double-Band-Transitional.png

?
I am by no means an expert on these as they are very rare, so here's what I've been able to ascertain thus far. If I am incorrect, somebody please feel free to correct me.

There are 2 types of "triple ring", "4 band", or whatever you want to call them Otto Links. One is based on the Tone Master dimensions internally and says Tone Master 9 on the shank, like the one Theo has on his site / the picture you posted.
The other is based on the NY Super Tone Master dimensions internally and says "Super Tone Master on the shank, like the one on the Sax Quest site.

As per the NY stamp on the others I know about, I will reach out and see if I can verify that they are. I honestly don't remember if they were or not. I know 2 guys that own these type Links. I will reach out and ask them and update the thread.

I would be interested to learn more myself as I've spent a lot of time looking, talking and attempting to research this specific model.





Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,728 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
I am by no means an expert on these as they are very rare, so here's what I've been able to ascertain thus far. If I am incorrect, somebody please feel free to correct me.

There are 2 types of "triple ring", "4 band", or whatever you want to call them Otto Links. One is based on the Tone Master dimensions internally and says Tone Master 9 on the shank, like the one Theo has on his site / the picture you posted.
The other is based on the NY Super Tone Master dimensions internally and says "Super Tone Master on the shank, like the one on the Sax Quest site.

As per the NY stamp on the others I know about, I will reach out and see if I can verify that they are. I honestly don't remember if they were or not. I know 2 guys that own these type Links. I will reach out and ask them and update the thread.

I would be interested to learn more myself as I've spent a lot of time looking, talking and attempting to research this specific model.





Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
If you get any response from anyone who owns a legit example of these I would be very interested to hear about it, specifically the stamping.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,814 Posts
Serial # is clearly seen as "V20" on the left side of the shank. I've never seen one of these before, but to my eye, it looks like the real deal. I wonder what astronomic price it went for?
Another person here on the forum wondered if he has an "incomplete" Reso Chamber. There's similar stuff missing from the shank on his Reso. I believe late run Reso's didn't have some of the typical Link "wording" on the shank. Just like this one, I still believe it's legit.
 

·
SOTW Columnist and Forum Contributor 2015-2016
Joined
·
3,832 Posts
Saxquest has seen a fair share of mouthpieces over the past few decades. If they were to get in something as rare/strange as this I am sure they did their homework and ensured it was the real deal.

- Saxaholic
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
17,296 Posts
Serial # is clearly seen as "V20" on the left side of the shank. I've never seen one of these before, but to my eye, it looks like the real deal. I wonder what astronomic price it went for?
Another person here on the forum wondered if he has an "incomplete" Reso Chamber. There's similar stuff missing from the shank on his Reso. I believe late run Reso's didn't have some of the typical Link "wording" on the shank. Just like this one, I still believe it's legit.
I'm with John in this, but find it strange that the tip stamp is not visible anymore on the table (the reface does seem light, so you would expect the stamp still to be visible). Also the lack of other Tone Master marks is strange.

I'm afraid we don't have too many examples of these to really know exactly how they have looked in the different development stage of the early DR.

The plating under the gold plating could give some information (the NY Link's had silver under the gold and the later Florida models had nickel, so this one also should have silver). If it has nickel under the gold it's probably a fake. I own an original early NY Double Ring 4* which has almost exactly the same markings as the late Tone Masters, so to me it's a bit strange that the in between Four Band Link doesn't have those markings.

But as mentioned, we don't know too much about those models and the piece itself looks like a real vintage Otto Link.

- Theo Wanne information: https://www.saxquest.com/uploads/images/products/gallery_view/13092DSC05287.jpg
- Ebay auction of this piece: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/First-Se...rentrq:f9102bc616c0ac3d13262315ffdb3e0f|iid:1
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,728 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Well, I actually bought this piece. Now that I have had some time and close examination of it, it is for sure authentic. The odd lack of stamping I can only guess means it was a prototype blank, maybe not intended for sale. The gold plating is undoubtably original and it shows machining as well so it has never been buffed. I've done some cleanup on it and made a video etc. it is an exceptionally good playing and interesting piece.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
17,296 Posts
Nice video and photo's Marin.

I'm not sure about your proto-type conclusion. It has serial number W20 and you would expect the first ones to start with A or even a 1 (I have a NY DR with a serial number starting with 1). You could assume that serial W20 would have had predecessor pieces with lower serial numbers (both letters and numbers).

Maybe it was just a rejected piece where Otto Link didn't finished the complete stamping on (with the exception of the serial number). Another option could be that someone took it or bought it from the shop (visiting Otto Link) before he finished all the stamping.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,814 Posts
Good stuff, Marin! For what it's worth, I completely agree there was most likely never a facing # stamped on the bottom of the table. As you very well know, those stamps were usually pretty deep and to take enough metal off the table to completely make it disappear just isn't likely. Mouthpieces and horns with mysteries like that are both fascinating and maddening at the same time!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,595 Posts
Great video, great sound!

Your handling of the mouthpiece while you were talking though kept on the edge of my chair! "please don't drop it!" spinning through my head.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,728 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Nice video and photo's Marin.

I'm not sure about your proto-type conclusion. It has serial number W20 and you would expect the first ones to start with A or even a 1 (I have a NY DR with a serial number starting with 1). You could assume that serial W20 would have had predecessor pieces with lower serial numbers (both letters and numbers).

Maybe it was just a rejected piece where Otto Link didn't finished the complete stamping on (with the exception of the serial number). Another option could be that someone took it or bought it from the shop (visiting Otto Link) before he finished all the stamping.
You could be totally correct about someone just coming to the shop and taking one, that is certainly possible, but still kind of fits with my idea of it being a blank not for sale. One reason I have that idea is also that we don't see ANY of these (ever) so clearly they were not really sold, I think. But, yeah I heard a story about Coltrane actually getting one of these, or something like it just a custom one off from Otto Link with a special design. Could this be that one? LOL! Who knows!

Regarding the W20 serial number, I would not put too much investment into the idea that the serial numbers had to be chronologically sequenced. I seriously doubt that. the W20 serial number, to me seems like it is the tail end of Tonemaster numbers actually. I actually had a very early NY double ring many years back ( think I traded it to Jerry Bergonzi, or I got it FROM him, I cannot recall exactly) but thatpiece had a serial of something like "A2" something very early. From the early double rings I have seen I believe they likely did not start the double ring serials as early as this piece and it very likely could have just continued with Tonemaster numbers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,728 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Good stuff, Marin! For what it's worth, I completely agree there was most likely never a facing # stamped on the bottom of the table. As you very well know, those stamps were usually pretty deep and to take enough metal off the table to completely make it disappear just isn't likely. Mouthpieces and horns with mysteries like that are both fascinating and maddening at the same time!
Yes that was my thinking as well. I really studied it to see if there was ANY evidence of a stamp having been sanded off. Having restored a rather large number of vintage Links in my years I understand exactly the circumstances of a table stamp disappearing. One has to take off a pretty thick layer of metal to have all the evidence gone. That would be easily enough metal to really drastically reduce the tip size. This piece has not been shortened and the tip is pretty thick and we are still in the 6* range which makes the idea of that table having been so drastically reduced a bit of an impossibility.

Besides the table stamp, the side stamps also not being present and showing zero evidence of removal and with the original gold.. even less likely that anything was done on the table stamp.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,728 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Great video, great sound!

Your handling of the mouthpiece while you were talking though kept on the edge of my chair! "please don't drop it!" spinning through my head.
Oh, hahaha well I was holding over a low table. I have a physical ruleset for handling these things because it has been so many years. I move slowly and always have positive contact. No worries.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
17,296 Posts
You could be totally correct about someone just coming to the shop and taking one, that is certainly possible, but still kind of fits with my idea of it being a blank not for sale. One reason I have that idea is also that we don't see ANY of these (ever) so clearly they were not really sold, I think. But, yeah I heard a story about Coltrane actually getting one of these, or something like it just a custom one off from Otto Link with a special design. Could this be that one? LOL! Who knows!

Regarding the W20 serial number, I would not put too much investment into the idea that the serial numbers had to be chronologically sequenced. I seriously doubt that. the W20 serial number, to me seems like it is the tail end of Tonemaster numbers actually. I actually had a very early NY double ring many years back ( think I traded it to Jerry Bergonzi, or I got it FROM him, I cannot recall exactly) but thatpiece had a serial of something like "A2" something very early. From the early double rings I have seen I believe they likely did not start the double ring serials as early as this piece and it very likely could have just continued with Tonemaster numbers.
Indeed there can be many possible explanations Marin.

Nicolas Trefeil has some charts with vintage Otto Link serial numbers per model. You see them often starting wit Axx, but I guess no one knows if Link really started each new model with A. Here is the link:
https://www.nicolastrefeil.com/otto-link-serial-numbers-3
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,728 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Indeed there can be many possible explanations Marin.

Nicolas Trefeil has some charts with vintage Otto Link serial numbers per model. You see them often starting wit Axx, but I guess no one knows if Link really started each new model with A. Here is the link:
https://www.nicolastrefeil.com/otto-link-serial-numbers-3
Thanks, I'll take a look. My thinking with the serial number is that this piece is so early, or perhaps a prototype that they may not have yet started "Super" Tonemaster serials.

Edit.. yeah it's interesting. The W serials are toward the end of improved Tonemaster, but even earlier ones with the serial prefix C have already the longer supertonemaster ligature ridge on top for a short period, which makes it appear that they were already experimenting the body change to supertonemaster early in the 'improved' tonemaster run. This makes the idea that this experiemental, prototype (whatever) showing up at the W prefix time period reasonable.. perhaps.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
17,296 Posts
You can also see in the serial number list of the first NY Double Ring models that Nicolas reports several mouthpieces without "New York"on the shank or tip size on the table, like your new Link also misses some of the stamps (so that seems less rare than we assume).

https://www.nicolastrefeil.com/stm-double-ring-1949
 
1 - 20 of 31 Posts
Top