[Dave Pollack]

Hey everyone! I've seen this topic discussed a lot and really wanted to do a video on it myself. The results are pretty interesting, and I think you'll enjoy this! I know lots of you have thoughts on this subject, so please let me know what you think. Enjoy!

 

[buddy lee]

My thoughts-

1. Every take sounded very (very) similar to my ear.
2. Any difference in tone at all is just as easily attributed to the fact that every single Mark VI is going to sound a little different from each other. Unless you're comparing horns that were made in the same run, this is moot. Hell, it could be the neck considering I've heard that necks make a huge difference on these horns.
3. It's pretty clear to me anyway that re-lacquered horns can (and usually do) sound just as good as their lacquered cousins. I would, and have, buy one.

 

[Lambros]

Dave, this is your best video to date. I listened to the whole thing all the way through without troubling myself to guess which was which and what was swapped with what. I kind of knew where you were going with it and that you're not some dyed in the wool purist but someone who really tries and works hard to get into your sound. Since you didn't play everything verbatim from setup to setup, guessing everything would have been interesting but it didn't matter. I just knew when you played your original neck to either your original horn or the re-lacquered that's when my hearing honed in on your playing because I recognize what you sound like on your horn. I know you're acutely aware of what the bottom end of altos could and should sound like and that's also a comfort zone as you described it; knowing what your horn does as you react to what your hearing with all the nuances of your embouchure for each note. Thanks again!

 

[10mfan]

Beautiful playing, Dave.

From a listener's point of view, I can tell you that you sound wonderful on both.
I've had great sounding relacs and bad ones. I've had great sounding original horns and bad ones.
I could personally care less if the horn I play was original or redone. I don't care if it was purple with yellow stripes, as long as it sounded great.
You sound great on both, really.

 

[A Greene]

Thanks for putting together the video. Honestly I just enjoyed your playing so much I forgot About the lacquer thing completely.

 

[BH9]

I might click on it later.

Whew! Man, you sound good!

 

[kreacher]

You sir should be ashamed of yourself and the content you put out. Destroying the dreams of folks that pay more for their horns using, what, LOGIC?

Disgusting

 

[JL]

Both horns sounded great to me (due to your great playing!) and I couldn't tell any real (or consistent) difference in sound. Which didn't really surprise me since I don't see how the lacquer could have an effect on the audio that the listener hears.

I did find it interesting that you mentioned a difference in feel and to me that would be of considerable importance. One of the things I really love about my VI tenor, which has about the same amount of original lacquer as your alto, is how it feels when I play it. It has a kind of 'buzz' or 'resonance' to it that I can feel. If a relac would deaden that feel, I wouldn't be happy about it, even if the sound didn't change.

 

[10mfan]

You sir should be ashamed of yourself and the content you put out. Destroying the dreams of folks that pay more for their horns using, what, LOGIC?

Disgusting

+1!!!!! Lol

 

[buddy lee]

Both horns sounded great to me (due to your great playing!) and I couldn't tell any real (or consistent) difference in sound. Which didn't really surprise me since I don't see how the lacquer could have an effect on the audio that the listener hears.

I did find it interesting that you mentioned a difference in feel and to me that would be of considerable importance. One of the things I really love about my VI tenor, which has about the same amount of original lacquer as your alto, is how it feels when I play it. It has a kind of 'buzz' or 'resonance' to it that I can feel. If a relac would deaden that feel, I wouldn't be happy about it, even if the sound didn't change.

How do you prove that's due to the relacquer though? It could just be a dead horn

 

[Reet McVouty]

Another great video Dave, professionally done I might add. From my perspective I think that the un-lacquered horn had a little fuller sound, a little crisper. However, they both sounded great and I doubt anyone could tell the difference if you were gigging with either one. The experiment is flawed in the fact that they are two different horns. They probably sounded a tad different coming right out of the factory. Anyway, what I really got from this is if you develop your playing skills and sound, you can pretty much play any horn and make it sound good.

 

[Dave Pollack]

Another great video Dave, professionally done I might add. From my perspective I think that the un-lacquered horn had a little fuller sound, a little crisper. However, they both sounded great and I doubt anyone could tell the difference if you were gigging with either one. The experiment is flawed in the fact that they are two different horns. They probably sounded a tad different coming right out of the factory. Anyway, what I really got from this is if you develop your playing skills and sound, you can pretty much play any horn and make it sound good.

Thanks! And that's really the point of the video - EVERY HORN IS DIFFERENT. You can't simply look at a horn with a certain serial number, name on the side, amount of lacquer, etc. and tell if it plays well. I'm so tired of people talking about how "good" a horn is without playing it. It's all talk - PLAY the thing and decide. I'm big into drag racing, and the comparison to me is when people have a car and say "oh my car WILL run XX.XX in the quarter mile and beat XYZ car" without ever running it. Put your money where your mouth is!!

 

[jamiejazz]

You sound beautiful on both horns, Dave. Great video

 

[JL]

How do you prove that's due to the relacquer though? It could just be a dead horn

+1.

I didn't say it was due to the relac. What I wrote was this (with emphasis on the key word):

"IF a relac would deaden that feel, I wouldn't be happy about it, even if the sound didn't change."

Note the word "if" in that statement. I agree there is no way to know whether any difference between the two horns is due to original lac vs re-lac, and I'd actually be surprised if the difference in feel that Dave mentioned is due to the state of the lacquer, but it can't really be proved either way. I was mainly commenting on the 'feel' thing because I think it's an important factor to the player, although not to the listener.

 

[whaler]

I’ve had two re-lacquered Selmer tenors. One was a beater that I got from a high school marching band. It had a 114xxx pulled down neck that I just pulled back up myself and a 150xxx body that was dinged to hell and re-lacquered at least once.
The thing was a beast but I sold it when I found a re-lacquered Balanced Action, also great.

 

[skeller047]

I checked this out in the morning, before my brain had fully clicked in (I find I need a couple hours to get up to speed these days, and then, by about noon or 1, I'm slowing down again!!!), so I tried to identify a particular sound. The tone of the 3rd horn in the first song (My Shining Hour) was noticeably different, so I tried to identify it in the following ones, and ended up being right 2 out of the 3 times. It was the relacquered horn with its own neck. It sounded, not darker really, but more covered or perhaps more resistant. Very slight difference, but audible. I was wrong in the third tune, but the differences were even more slight there. And too, it could be I was more interested in my coffee by then... I was listening on a cheap Yamaha sound bar attached to my TV, and of course YouTube sound is preprocessed considerably. Maybe on my good headphones I could tell more, but maybe not.

In any case, as everyone else has said, you sound just great on any of those combinations, and unless in a setting like this, with one played right after the other, I would be hard pressed to notice a difference. I've heard bigger differences in tone from just switching a reed, so it's all just a tossup.

You should go on mythbusters...

I remain, yours truly, a DP fanboy,
/Steve

PS - you owe me $365 - because of your playing on that 10M Fan mouthpiece, I had to get one for myself. It's fabulous, but it's all your fault!

 

[whamptoncourt]

Excellent video, especially the chat at the end. Reality is always best.

 

[Johan H Nilsson]

My impression for all woodwinds is that the gear's impact on the sound is proportional to the distance from your mouth.

Importance: reed -> mouthpiece -> ligature -> neck/barrel -> instrument

The cost order is rather the opposite...

 

[whamptoncourt]

My impression for all woodwinds is that the gear's impact on the sound is proportional to the distance from your mouth.

Importance: reed -> mouthpiece -> ligature -> neck/barrel -> instrument

The cost order is rather the opposite...

Sorry I can't let this go: Does anyone agree that the ligature is more important than the instrument? That's NUTS!!!

 

[BH9]

Sorry I can't let this go: Does anyone agree that the ligature is more important than the instrument? That's NUTS!!!

No.