[Giganova]

Please educate me:

Why do horns in original lacquer have a higher (monetary) value than re-lacquered horns? Since the lacquer (arguably) doesn't affect the sound, what's wrong with restoring, polishing/buffing and re-lacquering a horn? Is it pure "nostalgia" and looks people value? :?

 

[clarnibass]

Some possibilities are that a relacquered sax means a lot of other things done to it (buffing, etc.) which could mean it isn't as good as it used to be. Also if a sax was relacquered it probably means most lacquer was destroyed so maybe it was abused more than a sax in good condition, and maybe the metal suffered from no lacquer, etc. Esthetically maybe the relacquer doesn't look as good, or the engraving is not as sharp as it was. Also some players believe a relacquer (assuming nothing else was changed) will change the sound. Lots of reasons, and nothing wrong with restoring like you say, but if a sax had a pad changed, that's pretty common knowledge and obvious to most. If it needed relacquering then people start wondering why.

 

[Jaice Singer DuMars]

Clarnibass is right on the money. Relacquers hide a lot of damage history. Plus, tone holes getting buffed is not good unless done by someone who is really good at it. There have been times where I was engraving a relacquered horn and suddenly the graver starts denting the brass because it was buffed so thin. In these cases, I believe the inconsistency in brass thickness could definitely change the sound. But, as a general rule, I don't think it matters as much as people make of it.

Aesthetically speaking, most relacquers are that hideous bright colored lacquer. Yuck.

 

[DougR]

If you have'nt heard it, the story of Van Meegeren and the nazi collaboration trial sheds an interesting light on this.

 

[saintsday]

Both Jason and Clarnibass are correct, but I think it also has much to do with originality. On Antiques Roadshow there are many items that have been beautifully refinished that are worth half of what they would be if they showed their age.
There is an aesthetic issue as Jason mentions. As much as I like silver plate, the color of a 288xxx original lacquer Aristocrat with that great deco engraving is truly a thing of beauty. (Sounds great, too.)

 

[xax]

Having been involved for a number of years, in the restoration of antique furniture and other "old stuff", I have a couple of thoughts to add that may be usefull.

The current rage against restore/refinish/renew, etc is in the main, the result of a misunderstanding of the value of "oldness". The exclusivity of having some thing that appears as it did "back in the day" has a definite impact on value. However, the ability of a thing to serve as a historical document has traditionally been the truer arbiter of an antique's value. I don't think many "Antiques Road Show" fans or most of the general public are aware of this. Instead, the "urban myth" that everything is better left "unrestored".

One way to look at "old stuff" is to consider the relative rarity of the object and the likelihood that it will remain a viable object into the future.
When an object is "rare and original", it has a high value because it is a historical document showing among other things, how the object was made and the nature of its constituent materials. However, one might want to weigh the value of originality against the usage value of the object; that is to say, if you want to have this thing in the future or if you want to use this thing, you may want to repair restore refinish yada, despite possibly lessening it's value as a historical document. In the end, the thing that survives into the future, though restored may be more valuable than the thing that becomes original but useless trash.

And of course, any and all of that may have nothing to do with market value...

 

[catseyeweb]

If you have'nt heard it, the story of Van Meegeren and the nazi collaboration trial sheds an interesting light on this.

wow! What an interesting article. Thanks for that find.

 

[jmm1713]

I have a relacquered mark vi and other than being the most ugly thing I have ever seen theres nothing wrong with it.

 

[14470]

What matters to me is how the original lacquer was removed. I have a chem-stripped SA80 tenor with couple of layers of clear lacquer on it. The work, including the subsequent installation of fresh springs, pads, etc. and regulation, was done by Palo Tung, and that horn is worth more to me than a new Selmer.

I wonder if the sax standards were applied to string instruments, whether there would be any Stradivarius or Guarneri violins remaining today. I am guessing that the surface of the wood is being rather diligently maintained to protect the value. I read somewhere that Yo-Yo Ma's cellos are worth more than $2 million a piece. Having been played over the course of three centuries, I gather there would be more wood than a matchstick if left to age "naturally" as generaly advocated for saxophones. Granted, brass is somewhat sturdier material but one regularly encounters vintage horns with a patch to the left of the right hand thumbhook, where the thumb rests on the body. Even nickel plating wears through over time, so why it is such a crime to refinish saxophones providing the work is performed well is beyond me.

 

[hakukani]

What matters to me is how the original lacquer was removed. I have a chem-stripped SA80 tenor with couple of layers of clear lacquer on it. The work, including the subsequent installation of fresh springs, pads, etc. and regulation, was done by Palo Tung, and that horn is worth more to me than a new Selmer.

I wonder if the sax standards were applied to string instruments, whether there would be any Stradivarius or Guarneri violins remaining today. I am guessing that the surface of the wood is being rather diligently maintained to protect the value. I read somewhere that Yo-Yo Ma's cellos are worth more than $2 million a piece. Having been played over the course of three centuries, I gather there would be more wood than a matchstick if left to age "naturally" as generaly advocated for saxophones. Granted, brass is somewhat sturdier material but one regularly encounters vintage horns with a patch to the left of the right hand thumbhook, where the thumb rests on the body. Even nickel plating wears through over time, so why it is such a crime to refinish saxophones providing the work is performed well is beyond me.

It has been thought for years that Strads and Guarneri instruments were great because of something in the varnish. Now, experts argue that it's the particular density of the wood in the top and bottom plate that was only available in Cremona during the great maker's years of manufacturing.

Lynn Harrell's Strad cello still has spur marks that were made by Napoleon.
I have had a chance to hold and draw a bow over a Strad violin. It was definitely a religious experience, but I didn't particularly sound good, but man was it responsive and LOUD.

I attended a masterclass given by the French Cellist Paul Tortelier. The student was playing the Chopin Sonata on an old french instrument. The piano was totally overwhelming the cello, as is so often the case with this piece. Tortelier allowed the student to try a passage on his Guaneri. The sound fairly exploded from the cello. It was truly amazing.

Anyway, I digress. The fact is, there have been repairs and strengthening of the old Italian instruments, lots of bracing in the bass bar region to help the instrument stand up to stronger bridges, higher (more tension on the strings) tuning, and synthetic core, rather than gut strings. The front and back plates are in original condition including varnish.

In addition, the back and front plates are instrumental to the amplification system in the strings. This is not true of the saxophones. The internal shape of the horn is what provides the amplification. So, the external finish is not nearly as critical to the sound.

 

[xax]

It has been thought for years that Strads and Guarneri instruments were great because of something in the varnish. Now, experts argue that it's the particular density of the wood in the top and bottom plate that was only available in Cremona during the great maker's years of manufacturing.

I'm not at all certain but I thought i read or heard something in the past 2-3 years about Borax being used in the finishing of the top (of "Strads")?

 

[14470]

The front and back plates are in original condition including varnish.

Rather obvious that you know more about this than I do but please elaborate/explain. How does this work? Regardless of whether it is skin or some piece of clothing that is inserted between the violin and the shoulder, does the varnish really last for several centuries? Also, what happens when a repair is needed. Does that affect value? (to sort of stay on topic)

 

[hakukani]

Rather obvious that you know more about this than I do but please elaborate/explain. How does this work? Regardless of whether it is skin or some piece of clothing that is inserted between the violin and the shoulder, does the varnish really last for several centuries? Also, what happens when a repair is needed. Does that affect value? (to sort of stay on topic)

There were some that were re-varnished in the 1800s--not sure which ones (IIRC there are about 700 Strad violins in playable condition). There is some wear, and less or no varnish on many old instruments where the shoulder comes in contact, although most modern players use some sort of foam cushion on their instruments--that's probably a good quesiton for Carl.

Repairing cracks is a very interesting process. Since string instruments are held together with gelatin (like Knox gelatin or unflavored jello), they are relatively easy to take apart. The plate is then clamped together , and some diamond shaped pieces of wood are fitted along the crack to help hold it together, sort of like a wooden staple.

 

[DougR]

T..., they are relatively easy to take apart....

I've seen a Guarneri taken apart - once - I like the use of "relatively".

 

[hakukani]

I've seen a Guarneri taken apart - once - I like the use of "relatively".

...easier than if they used Elmer's Glue...

...I have seen a luthier sweat blood getting a relatively inexpensive ($12,000 in 1985) French Cello apart. I can imagine a luthier sweating bullets as well as blood in getting a Guarneri apart.