[Maboe]

Dear members,
I can buy a Tenor Borgani at an auction but cannot view it due to Covid regulations in my country. So I only have a few photos to decide on this purchase.
I do have some questions that hopefully someone can answer.
The Bell has a different color from the body. It looks like the bell is made of copper and the body of brass? Is this standard or is this saxophone stripped (removal of varnish)
The bell brace is different from what I can find on the internet about other Borganis. They usually have one or more straight bars as a bell brace, but this one has a round one. According to the auction records it is a saxophone from the 1960s with serial number 89 **. On the case is a plate with the text DITTA Prof. Orfeo BORGANI
Macerata (Italy).
Is this worth $ 400? I am adding some photos of which I updated the background a bit, I hope someone can help me with more info and good advice.
With best regards. Marc

 

[buddy lee]

Does it play? IMO any tenor sax that doesn't need work is worth $400... if it needs an overhaul, I wouldn't.

 

[JayeLID]

These are pretty good horns, actually.....the 'lightning bolt' neckbrace, I have always loved that. Probably late 70's-early 80's or around there. Quasi-modern keywork, nice tone. Intonation on old Borgs can be a bit flexy, particularly for players with lazy/undeveloped embouchure...but no more so than other old makes and less so on Tenor than their Altos.
These blow with a little bit of resistance, they are not 'free-blowers'; not that this is bad, many players prefer a slight resistance in blowing response.
Last thing about 'em....the pearl keytouches are not on the large side...so if you have big hands, things might feel a bit 'tight' to the fingertips.

$400 isn't a bad price. I used to refurb and sell these for around $650 when the global economy was better....

The bell has lost its lacq, as has the neck perhaps. Possible that a previous owner removed it (likely, given that the bare brass stops right at the bell/bow ferrule)...ask if there are signs of abrasion marks on both locations....although from the engraving pic it doesn't look like it was badly done.

If you don't like that aesthetic, the bell and neck can brought back to a shiny bare brass and allowed to patina down again, it might patina to a nice deep gold, better than the current orange.

You could do this with store-bought products and without having to disassemble the entire horn; or you could have a tech chem or sonic - bathe the body and neck, then hand-polish it before reassembly.

 

[Maboe]

Thank you for your answer.
I asked the seller one more question and only got an answer today, which is why I only now respond to your useful advice. There are reports on several forums that Borgani also stamped the serial number or part of it in the neck. This is not the case with this neck. Do you know if Borgani did this with every instrument or would this be a spare part? Are there products for patination that you can recommend?

 

[JayeLID]

It is clearly a Borgani neck as nobody else made a neck brace like that. Also, older Borgani tenon diameters are a pretty unique dimension, most replacement necks will not work with their older horns.

Regarding the bell...if you don't like the current appearance, this is what I would do (I don't know how mechanically inclined you are, so either you could try it or have a tech repair person do it):

~ disassemble the horn (remove the keywork) and either chem bathe or sonic bathe the whole body. IF you are going to do this yourself, there are a few cleansing agents one can buy to do this (I can give you the brand names if you like..I am not certain what may or may not be available where you live).

~ if that is too much of a job for you, have a tech do it. Honestly, a tech's chem or sonic bath will do a better job than a home-brew, hardware-store purchased cleaner anyway.

~ once bathed and soap rinsed, next hand-polish it with something like Maas or Wenol (red tube) and a medium-to-fine microfibre cloth. Do this to the bell at least, you could also do it to rest of body, the polish will not damage the lacquer.
Or again, have the tech do it.

At this point you will have a bare brass bell....it will be yellower than the rest of the horn. From here you have a few choices:

1) ask tech if they have any suggestions on a colorant.

2) You are done - Let the bare brass bell just patina naturally over time...the yellow will patina down to a more golden color and it will probably look pretty good. It IS possible the brass will start patina'ing to a color you don't like, too. In which case, simply hand-polish with the paste again back to bare brass.

3) Once the bell is bare brass, use a metal colorant to apply to the bare brass (Note this will require a cleaning agent on the bell after it is polished, as polish leaves residue. I use naptha on a clean microfibre cloth. Some companies who sell colorant offer their own cleaning/prep agent.

JAX Gold Finish - JAX Chemical Company

Produces a simulated 24K gold finish on brass and bronze.

jaxchemical.com

is one colorant. It is user-friendly to apply. Sometimes it 'takes' to the metal well, other times it will only produce a very subtle gold hue, very subtle.

Another I have used is Sculpt Nouveau - Patinas and Metal Finishes their ferric nitrate is pretty good in giving a gold-brass hue, although I see now they also have a 'tan' patina, which is new. Their stuff DOES take some practice to apply. The nice thing about the Ferric is it can give you a 'mottled' sort of look, not uniform...which might work well on this horn.

I don't know, again, what you may have more available near you.

Personally, I would go with option 2). Worst case scenario if it does not patina in the direction you want, you could just polish it back to bare and consider other alternatives.

 

[Maboe]

It is clearly a Borgani neck as nobody else made a neck brace like that. Also, older Borgani tenon diameters are a pretty unique dimension, most replacement necks will not work with their older horns.

Regarding the bell...if you don't like the current appearance, this is what I would do (I don't know how mechanically inclined you are, so either you could try it or have a tech repair person do it):

~ disassemble the horn (remove the keywork) and either chem bathe or sonic bathe the whole body. IF you are going to do this yourself, there are a few cleansing agents one can buy to do this (I can give you the brand names if you like..I am not certain what may or may not be available where you live).

~ if that is too much of a job for you, have a tech do it. Honestly, a tech's chem or sonic bath will do a better job than a home-brew, hardware-store purchased cleaner anyway.

~ once bathed and soap rinsed, next hand-polish it with something like Maas or Wenol (red tube) and a medium-to-fine microfibre cloth. Do this to the bell at least, you could also do it to rest of body, the polish will not damage the lacquer.
Or again, have the tech do it.

At this point you will have a bare brass bell....it will be yellower than the rest of the horn. From here you have a few choices:

1) ask tech if they have any suggestions on a colorant.

2) You are done - Let the bare brass bell just patina naturally over time...the yellow will patina down to a more golden color and it will probably look pretty good. It IS possible the brass will start patina'ing to a color you don't like, too. In which case, simply hand-polish with the paste again back to bare brass.

3) Once the bell is bare brass, use a metal colorant to apply to the bare brass (Note this will require a cleaning agent on the bell after it is polished, as polish leaves residue. I use naptha on a clean microfibre cloth. Some companies who sell colorant offer their own cleaning/prep agent.

JAX Gold Finish - JAX Chemical Company

Produces a simulated 24K gold finish on brass and bronze.

jaxchemical.com

is one colorant. It is user-friendly to apply. Sometimes it 'takes' to the metal well, other times it will only produce a very subtle gold hue, very subtle.

Another I have used is Sculpt Nouveau - Patinas and Metal Finishes their ferric nitrate is pretty good in giving a gold-brass hue, although I see now they also have a 'tan' patina, which is new. Their stuff DOES take some practice to apply. The nice thing about the Ferric is it can give you a 'mottled' sort of look, not uniform...which might work well on this horn.

I don't know, again, what you may have more available near you.

Personally, I would go with option 2). Worst case scenario if it does not patina in the direction you want, you could just polish it back to bare and consider other alternatives.

Dear JayLid
Thank you for your expert advice. If I can buy this Tenor (I have to have the highest bid) I will certainly prefer to do this work myself. I have not been involved with this hobby for very long but I do have some technical knowledge. I used to work in the HVAC sector and later taught in a technical school for 30 years, I have only worked on three saxophones so far. (Tenor Schenkelaars with whom I now take lessons in the music academy, an old Alto Melchior De Vries and a Kings Tenor) So far it has been successful to mount new pads and re-assemble the instruments. As far as patination is concerned, I still have copper plumbing pipes to give it a try. I look forward.
Your advice is certainly useful for an Amati Tenor Lignatone that I pick up on Saturday. Thanks again.

 

[JayeLID]

Dear JayLid
Thank you for your expert advice. If I can buy this Tenor (I have to have the highest bid) I will certainly prefer to do this work myself. I have not been involved with this hobby for very long but I do have some technical knowledge. I used to work in the HVAC sector and later taught in a technical school for 30 years, I have only worked on three saxophones so far. (Tenor Schenkelaars with whom I now take lessons in the music academy, an old Alto Melchior De Vries and a Kings Tenor) So far it has been successful to mount new pads and re-assemble the instruments. As far as patination is concerned, I still have copper plumbing pipes to give it a try. I look forward.
Your advice is certainly useful for an Amati Tenor Lignatone that I pick up on Saturday. Thanks again. View attachment 5688 View attachment 5689

OK, cool...well, yes if disassembling a horn is no problem for you, as it certainly is not...then cleaning it and applying a faux finish will also be of little trouble.
Cheers.

 

[Enthusiast65]

The bell is copper. There’s one in the ‘museum’ cabinet at the workshop in macerata. They made the same model as a stencil line for Selmer (Pennsylvania).

 

[milandro]

Thank you for your answer.
I asked the seller one more question and only got an answer today, which is why I only now respond to your useful advice. There are reports on several forums that Borgani also stamped the serial number or part of it in the neck. This is not the case with this neck. Do you know if Borgani did this with every instrument or would this be a spare part? Are there products for patination that you can recommend?

I have a Borgani with the bolt neck (like this one in the pictures above) an a serial number 86xx , I think it is quite a bit later than the '60 having had one with the neck with the straight brace.

apparently on the guarantee card this model is Called Tenor Saxophone Professional, 0166 S seems to be the serial number ( probably made in the '80? I have asked confirmation to the company)

The neck does have the last digits of the serial number. My horn appears to be also of a more modern design (and certainly has a more modern round logo that the one you show ) than the one you show . the upper and lower hands both show screw regulation for the height of the keys.

I will be offering this for sale

 

[JayeLID]

The bell is copper. There's one in the 'museum' cabinet at the workshop in Macerata. They made the same model as a stencil line for Selmer (Pennsylvania).

Wow, man...cool info. Have never seen one of these in person with a copper-alloy bell. The ones I refurbed which look very similar were all lacq brass.

That fact in and of itself...I would say...makes the horn worth bidding on.

(I'd imagine the auction is over by now ?)

 

[Enthusiast65]

Wow, man...cool info. Have never seen one of these in person with a copper-alloy bell. The ones I refurbed which look very similar were all lacq brass.

That fact in and of itself...I would say...makes the horn worth bidding on.

(I'd imagine the auction is over by now ?)

Thanks The Borgani folk weren't overly keen on the use of Copper in the bell, which they felt lost a bit of response. or at least that's what I think they meant. I had one, that I had found on eBay following my visit there, and it sounded fine. I felt the nickel plated base metal keywork (sort of dark grey underneath the plating) was a bit basic though. So I moved it on.

As an aside the older 1930s Arnaldo Borganis are something else, in a different galaxy. I've finally put mine up on eBay on the one in, one out principle - and will be truly very sorry to see it go. Great big enveloping sound.

 

[milandro]

just got in touch with Orfeo Borgani about the horn above (IN MY POST , NOT OP’s ), made in the ’70 and he confirms it was a Pro Model