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Opinion on Yamaha CUSTOM mouthpieces?

48K views 32 replies 20 participants last post by  gyrofrog.com 
#1 ·
I see comments periodically on Yamaha 4C stock mpcs but I don't recall reading anything about their Custom mpcs. (Yes, dear hearts, I searched ;) )
Have any of you played them and how do they stack up against, for example, Vandorens? Thanks.
 
#2 ·
gary said:
I see comments periodically on Yamaha 4C stock mpcs but I don't recall reading anything about their Custom mpcs. (Yes, dear hearts, I searched ;) )
Have any of you played them and how do they stack up against, for example, Vandorens? Thanks.
Gary -

My initial reaction of the Custom 4C that came with my YTS-875 is disappointing. Of course, that could be a result of my inexperience on tenor. It was a bit stuffy and I think too closed for me. I also have a Selmer S90 and a Vandoren T20 to compare it to, but I'm waiting for some new reeds to come in to do a fair comparison. I should get the reeds today or tomorrow, and I'll let you know how it turns out.

Frank
 
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#5 ·
On the alto I found the Rico Royal C3 better than the Yamaha 4C. Cheap I know but better, for me, than the Selmer C*. I know your query was about Custom Yamaha mouthpieces but I just got a new Yamaha YTS62 and it has a 4C piece in it. How do I know if it is a custom one or not?
 
#7 ·
Ronish said:
On the alto I found the Rico Royal C3 better than the Yamaha 4C. Cheap I know but better, for me, than the Selmer C*. I know your query was about Custom Yamaha mouthpieces but I just got a new Yamaha YTS62 and it has a 4C piece in it. How do I know if it is a custom one or not?
Mine says "custom" prominently on it in gold, etched cursive letters. I'm no position to judge how good they are, having never played any other ones besides a plastic rental. I would also like to hear other people's opinion about them.
 
#8 ·
I've a custom for soprano and it plays very similarly to an S80 selmer. A friend of mine borrows it every time he plays in church or with a choir. Much better than the standard yamaha piece, IMHO.
 
#12 ·
I tried them on soprano, alto, and tenor several years back. I remember them as good all around mpc's....nothing special.......I wouldn't trade my Vandorens for them obviously......I didn't even look at the mpc's that came with my current collection, just went with the V5's...
 
#13 · (Edited)
4CM, 82Z, stock lig or Rovner dark lig, Otto Link 6 comparison

I bought a bunch of strength 3-ish reeds recently and tried them on the Otto Link 6 metal and the 4CM. None of them worked very well with the Otto Link 6 metal (the only one that does is the Van Doren V16 - lovely sound, has a thicker tip). They all "speak" very easily and readily using the 4CM with a nice warm perfect tone (and perfectly in tune), but the Rico Royal 3 wins the contest for the reeds I have, but likely the V16 would win, although the Frederick Hemke is good too, but not tested thoroughly (or worn in yet). The V16 is better (with the 4CM and the Otto Link metal 6).

The reeds I'm testing are:

Frederick Hemke 3 (a definite contender)
Rico Royal 3 (the best - equal to the VD Java 3 perhaps)
Van Doren Java 3
Van Doren ZZ 3
La Voz med hard
Van Doren V16 - don't have one right now

on both the Otto Link and the 4CM.

The 4CM is perfectly in tune with all the reeds above. The Otto Link 6 I have is sharp sharp sharp from C, palm-key D upwards.

The 4CM sounds better with the Rovner dark ligature than with the stock ligature.

But, I'm looking for a Lester Young, or Dexter Gordon type of sound (eventually) and I'm not sure I can do this with the 4CM and a fat reed of some kind. The V16 comes close. The Van Doren Java 3 is pretty good too. I find if I take more mpc the tone gets deeper or fatter (does this make sense?). The Van Doren ZZ 3 sounded too bright for my liking, the Java 3 was better.

I've almost given up on 2 1/2 reeds for the Otto Link 6. The thing only comes alive with a 3 reed or higher.

There's no mucking around with tightening and loosening embouchure (or loosening the strap) to humour notes into tune using the 4CM. They're all spot-on using every tuner I could get my hands on. The only technique or humoring necessary is to stick the mouthpiece in your mouth and blow, that easy. With a more resistant mouthpiece, I might have to work a little harder, and might even get better results, but the 4CM is temptingly easy to blow. I've only been on tenor for about 4 or 5 months and will move up to a better mouthpiece shortly, but for now I simply want to see what I can get out of this 4CM.

I'm assuming I don't have the 82Z with the faulty G1 neck. I only bought it a couple of days ago (maybe somebody could confirm this for me). Have only tried the 4CM and the Otto Link 6. I might get different results with an Otto Link 7, or with the New York Otto Link.

As for the 82-Z (lacquered) ... it was love at first honk.
 
#32 ·
Re: 4CM, 82Z, stock lig or Rovner dark lig, Otto Link 6 comparison

I bought a bunch of strength 3-ish reeds recently and tried them on the Otto Link 6 metal and the 4CM. None of them worked very well with the Otto Link 6 metal (the only one that does is the Van Doren V16 - lovely sound, has a thicker tip). They all "speak" very easily and readily using the 4CM with a nice warm perfect tone (and perfectly in tune), but the Rico Royal 3 wins the contest for the reeds I have, but likely the V16 would win, although the Frederick Hemke is good too, but not tested thoroughly (or worn in yet). The V16 is better (with the 4CM and the Otto Link metal 6).

The reeds I'm testing are:

Frederick Hemke 3 (a definite contender)
Rico Royal 3 (the best - equal to the VD Java 3 perhaps)
Van Doren Java 3
Van Doren ZZ 3
La Voz med hard
Van Doren V16 - don't have one right now

on both the Otto Link and the 4CM.

The 4CM is perfectly in tune with all the reeds above. The Otto Link 6 I have is sharp sharp sharp from C, palm-key D upwards.

The 4CM sounds better with the Rovner dark ligature than with the stock ligature.

But, I'm looking for a Lester Young, or Dexter Gordon type of sound (eventually) and I'm not sure I can do this with the 4CM and a fat reed of some kind. The V16 comes close. The Van Doren Java 3 is pretty good too. I find if I take more mpc the tone gets deeper or fatter (does this make sense?). The Van Doren ZZ 3 sounded too bright for my liking, the Java 3 was better.

I've almost given up on 2 1/2 reeds for the Otto Link 6. The thing only comes alive with a 3 reed or higher.

There's no mucking around with tightening and loosening embouchure (or loosening the strap) to humor notes into tune using the 4CM. They're all spot-on using every tuner I could get my hands on. The only technique or humoring necessary is to stick the mouthpiece in your mouth and blow, that easy. With a more resistant mouthpiece, I might have to work a little harder, and might even get better results, but the 4CM is temptingly easy to blow. I've only been on tenor for about 4 or 5 months and will move up to a better mouthpiece shortly, but for now I simply want to see what I can get out of this 4CM.

I'm assuming I don't have the 82Z with the faulty G1 neck. I only bought it a couple of days ago (maybe somebody could confirm this for me). Have only tried the 4CM and the Otto Link 6. I might get different results with an Otto Link 7, or with the New York Otto Link.

As for the 82-Z (lacquered) ... it was love at first honk.
I bought a new Yamaha Custom case on Ebay and it happened to have a new 4CM mouthpiece inside. I gave it a try and loved it. I'm no player but I enjoy the journey. The 4CM was free blowing and pleasantly bright. My normal setup is a Selmer or Mauriat tenor using a Kanee V8 HR which plays somewhat dark and requires a decent amount of air, or a Jody Jazz Jet 7* which is a bit bright and more free blowing, Legere Signature Series 2.5 reed . The 4CM with the same Legere reed takes but a puff of air to blow but if you try to push it the reed will close down. Actually I use the 4CM as sort of a training mp that helps me control my air and embouchure. I liked the 4CM enough to buy a 7CM just to see if it has more to offer. I just had a Yamaha YTS-21 restored (sentimental reasons) and put the 4CM on it and it was a good match so that's where I am until the 7CM arrives. I like the sound, look and feel of the 4CM and if the 7CM sounds the same but allows me to put more air thru the horn it will become a regular part of my setup. Hope this helps.
 
#17 ·
Late to this discussion, but I bought a 6CM mouthpiece recently for alto. I've been comparing it with a Rousseau Studio Jazz SJ6. (Before I go further I should mention that I play infrequently, some days I only have time to blow long overtones and a few riffs, and that's after a long layoff from regularly playing at all.) Those two mouthpieces may seem like apples and oranges -- the SJ6 has a bit of a baffle, while the 6CM has what I'd almost describe as an anti-baffle -- but what they do have in common is that they both "feel" better, and sound better (to me), than anything else I've got around.

For me, it's easier to hit the palm-key notes on the 6CM and the upper octave (A2 and up) just speaks out better in general. The SJ6, of course, has a jazzier (or somewhat edgier) sound, but I've found I can make the 6CM do this. I played both for my wife, who is something of a disinterested 3rd party (doesn't play an instrument; not into jazz). I asked her simply to decide which one she thought sounded prettier, which seems as good a criterion as any. She picked the 6CM over the SJ6. (A few days ago she picked the SJ6 over a Runyon 88 #6.)

Also worth noting, I guess, that the 6CM seems relatively open for this sort of mouthpiece (though it's still only .075" or so) compared with the 4C or 4CM that are, apparently, more common (and the plastic Cs have closer tips than the hard rubber CMs). I've also noticed that I'm happier with a slightly harder reed now, e.g. a La Voz Medium instead of a Medium Soft or a Vandoren Java 2.5 (which are what I used to use).

Might as well mention where my head and ears are lately, though: it's been larger doses of Benny Carter, Art Pepper, and Gigi Gryce, whereas when I regularly practiced before (15-20 years ago) it was a bigger diet of, say, Sanborn or Cannonball.

My $0.02.
 
#18 ·
I just bought a Yamaha 3C. It's supposed to be brighter and a bit edgier than the 4C I've been playing. Also, it's supposed to help smooth out any problems one might be having with a 4C, so I thought I'd see what it's about. My embouchure might gain some positive input from it. Might help me find my tone, too. I've been wondering what brighter and edgier sound like on my horn. I know the higher numbered C's are more mellow (darker), so I don't really want to go in that direction. Will review once I've had a few days with it.
 
#19 ·
Just to clarify, "C" (3C, 4C) etc. is the numbering system for the Yamaha Standard (plastic) mouthpiece; "CM" (e.g. 4CM) is the Yamaha Custom (hard rubber). (More info)

As for the higher number Cs being more mellow, I'm not sure about that. The higher the number, the bigger the tip opening -- as I recall, the wider the tip opening, the louder the mouthpiece will potentially play, but I'm not sure how it would (directly) affect the tone (given the chamber size and shape remaining the same).

Thus your 3C will be more closed than your 4C. On the other hand, a 3CM (i.e. a Custom) might be about the same tip opening as your 4C -- on soprano and alto, at least, the facings are different between the Standards and Customs (according to Yamaha chart)

Speaking for myself, I don't find the Yamaha 6CM to have much edge at all (I'm pretty sure it wasn't designed for that), though I wouldn't describe it as "dark" either. Any edge comes from me pushing the note.

If the 3C plays better for you than the 4C, then that settles that, just thought I'd chime in re: Yamaha's numbering system.
 
#21 ·
The actual quote comes from here:

http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Reviews/mouthpieces.htm

"As far as the beginner looking to buy a Yamaha piece is concerned, the basic range runs from a 3C piece up to a 7C - and the smaller the number the brighter the mouthpiece will sound (the higher the number, the darker).
Brightness and darkness are terms that describe the general tonal response of a mouthpiece, and in very simple terms you can think of brightness as being edgy and piercing and darkness as being full and mellow. It might sound like brightness isn't going to be something you'd want, but a bright mouthpiece is often easier for a beginner to play. Conversely, a dark mouthpiece can turn out to be a bit stiffer to blow.
Decent mouthpieces. In recent years there has been a trend towards darker mouthpieces, and I often see students struggling with such pieces. As such I would recommend going for a Yamaha 3C or 4C mouthpiece - perhaps a 5C if you're adamant that you want a warm tone. Leave the other models to players who are able to try the pieces out and make their own minds up."
 
#27 ·
This echoes a comment from Phil Barone some years back. When comparing similar brands of mouthpieces, the more open one will be naturally darker i.e. a metal Link 5 will be brighter than a 9, or a Dukoff D5 will be brighter than a D8. It's got to with how close the baffle (more specifically right behind the tip rail) is to the reed. So in other words, when comparing the same chamber/baffle configuration, this will generally be the case.

Of course, it isn't to say that you can't learn to play the more open piece with a bright sound. Conversely, playing the 3C will be a challenge for most to play warmer and requires a lot of careful practice. This is why so many classical teachers insist on starting with a Selmer C* and basically playing through the repertoire on this setup. It will force you learn to make that sound. Should you want to part ways after that, there are many other good setups that you could use that may be more comfortable with but you will already have learned to produce the sound you hear. I'm sure that's why the Yamaha 4C has been such a common choice for band directors as well when getting their students started.

Back to the original topic though, I've worked on a bunch of these on a lark for friends who've wanted to see what 'can be done' with these pieces and yes, they are very much like their S-80 counterparts. I never had much luck changing the voice of these pieces like I can with other models, but they can be made to play very easily at a more open tip. I like the alto and soprano ones best so far.
 
#22 ·
I have to say, that webpage runs counter to what I've read elsewhere -- more resistant, maybe, but not darker. I'm no expert, so take that for what it's worth.

But here's what Yamaha themselves say about their C mouthpieces:

ModelComments
3CSuitable for beginners. Helps bring out distinctive, clear sound with good response in high and low registers.
4CEasy to obtain a balanced, clear, and focused tone in any octave. Ideal for professionals and beginners.
5CProvides a somewhat richer tone with greater variety of colors than 4C and excellent flexibility and response. Popular with soloists.
6CPowerful volume and rich tonal variations. Excellent for experienced players.
7CRich, bold, powerful volume and accurate attacks. Well suited for jazz.
(Source: http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musi...phones_series/#tab=PD5115636; table at bottom)
 
#24 · (Edited)
Some more observations on the Custom 6CM:

I recorded myself on the 6CM and then did the same with a Brilhart Ebolin 4 (the modern, inexpensive version that Selmer makes). They have about the same tip opening. The Brilhart does not have much of a baffle, but it's more than the Custom (which has a concave baffle, or "anti-baffle"). And yet sound from the Custom is brighter! As DarrellMass points out, these things are open to interpretation -- by "brighter" I mean the higher frequencies are boosted. The higher notes, in particular, really sing out (not easier to play; I mean in terms of tone). In that sense, the Brilhart is "darker," more as thoughI was playing a tenor. And while the Custom is "brighter," the Brilhart has more "edge" to its sound, it's gruffier sounding in comparison.

Both the lowest notes and the palm key notes pop out more easily on the Brilhart.

But the Yamaha is definitely prettier sounding, as my wife had noted (see earlier post).

EDIT: Others have mentioned that they prefer the plastic Standard (3C, 4C, 5C etc.) to the hard rubber Custom. I'm curious to try a 7C (same tip opening as 6CM); based on the pictures I've seen, the chamber is a little more rounded out and the baffle is closer to flat than concave.
 
#25 ·
I'm curious to try a 7C (same tip opening as 6CM); based on the pictures I've seen, the chamber is a little more rounded out and the baffle is closer to flat than concave.
I got hold of a (plastic) 6C; I was unable to find a 7C online from an American dealer. I would say the 6C had the good response of the Selmer Brilhart 4, but sounded much better (less stuffy). However, it did not sound as good as the Custom 6CM -- the 6C has a tubbier quality. I think this could be exploited for a "raunchy" tone, but that's not what I'm after. I wonder if the 6C might sound better with a harder reed, but the response was so good with a Rico Royal 2 1/2 that I didn't bother trying. (I didn't realize until later that the 6C tip opening is only .066" or 1.7mm, considerably less than I'd been accustomed to lately).

In my opinion the plastic Yamaha C mouthpieces are a better alternative to the Selmer Brilharts. The Yamaha has better finishing compared to the Brilhart; for example the Brilhart has a very wide tip rail. Initially I thought both mouthpieces had a similar design (flat sidewalls etc.), but the Yamaha has a wider chamber and more of a flat baffle, where the Brilhart has a very gradual convex (if not quite rollover) baffle.

I still think the (hard rubber) Custom 6CM has an incredibly pretty sound, I'm just less sure that it's a good sound for jazz. There are better tools in the drawer, so to speak. The Custom could do the job, but it would take more work.
 
#26 ·
Just landed an 82Z, Rob, steal but don't kill to get... Lol.. And it came with a custom Yamaha mouthpiece and sounded great. Then my Otto Link Metal S. T. M. arrived and played horrible. My mistake. You must use a new Reed with a new piece... they form/mold to the mouthpiece. Then it played great but takes a real toll on your lip... bad. Had a thing to play, and went back to the ever So Comfortable and smooth Yamaha Custom mouthpiece.
 
#28 ·
My YTS-82z came with a 4CM mouthpiece which I hardly ever used. Later on I got hold of a 5CM which I still use, and which I really like, even though it tip opening is less than I would prefer. It seems to me that there is a considerable difference between the CM and the C apart from the feel, and that the tip opening is not the same for the same number. One problem with this thread is that it is not always clear whether the CM or the C is meant.
 
#29 ·
One problem with this thread is that it is not always clear whether the CM or the C is meant.
Yeah, I wasn't much help there because I was comparing both of them (a 6CM and a 6C) in earlier posts. It also didn't help much that, in one of the posts, I confused the C and CM tip openings -- sorry for not being of much help there.

But you're correct, the two are different. The plastic C mouthpieces have a different chamber from the CM, it is slightly more rounded:
Automotive lighting Vehicle Bumper Motor vehicle Automotive exterior
(Source: http://smartdoublers.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Yamaha3C-3.jpg)

The hard rubber (or ebonite) CM mouthpiece has a square shape, more like a Selmer S-80:
Hand Automotive tire Finger Alloy wheel Household hardware
(Source: https://http2.mlstatic.com/boquilha...an-D_NQ_NP_168401-MLB20328823566_062015-F.jpg)
I've noticed the CM has an arched roof, which I would describe as the opposite of a rollover baffle, in other words it's concave in the same area that a rollover, convex baffle would be.

As for the feel, the Yamaha specifications give different facing lengths for the C and CM, so that may have a lot to do with it.

I've managed to get hold of a 7CM, but so far I've only managed to spend a few minutes with it.
 
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