[Kelpie]

My formal flute training was in the early 1970's when I was young. I was taught to graduate to all silver, open hole inline G and I didn't question it. When I first tried an inline G, I can remember I didn't like it. I had to get used to it. But now it's not a bother so much, although compared to the offset G I can't see how anyone could prefer the inline. I play mostly church hymns with the flute, and since they are slow, I don't have a problem there. What gives me problems is the exercises I play that are fast and all over the scale. I think for me, my next flute will be the offset, closed hole. But lately I can see the need for the low B, because there are a couple hymns I play that go down to low B, but the vast majority don't. But anyway thanks all for the great information here (as always). This really clears things up for me.

 

[Gordon (NZ)]

I reckon that if a hymn went down to low B, it would sound better on a flute if it were an octave higher.

I had a low B in a show once, and it was nowhere near a low C, so I just slipped an appropriate length of soft vinyl tube over the end of the flute to extend it enough to turn low C into B. Of course I lost low C, and C# was a bit flat, but I could easily lip it up.

I found this option preferable to borrowing a spare low B foot joint (same brand) offered by the player beside me, because I did not have those two confounded rollers right next to each other to deal with.

 

[VESPASIAN]

It takes time and work to get used to the open hole flutes, so I agree that it is a fair question - what is the bang for the buck? Besides the occasional open hole bend, I don't leverage any other technical use. Maybe someday I will... The option is there for me.

I do prefer open hole, inline flutes though. As another poster mentioned, I also like the feel. Once we are used to something and it becomes second nature, there is no more thought given to it. But then pick up something different and you experience "wow this is strange"...

I agree with Gordon regarding the use of plugs - If you use them you are probably better off with a closed hole flute because the open hole flute was designed to have - :shock: open holes :shock:. But I don't think any issues introduced by the use of plugs should be used as an argument against open hole flutes. The plug itself is an argument.

Perhaps the best reason for playing open hole is so you can play open hole. Then any flute that comes across your path may be welcomed and experienced.

Cheers, Ed

 

[mbfav]

Mods, this thread (and the other one started right after) should be a sticky in this section, IMO. I would think this would be the #1 topic for saxophonists regarding the flute.

I'm in the market for a new flute now, which is what led me here. To be honest, I was expecting to get some sort of start here but then go over to the "real" flute boards to get some advice on what to play. The articulate, knowledgeable community here has once again made me realize I don't know every damn thing.

I can't tell you how much this thread has me completely rethinking my process.

I've played a Jupiter 711 (solid silver, open hole, inline G which I've plugged and always felt guilty about) for 18 years. I bought it for the same reasons stated here. I was playing a lot of flute and thought open hole/silver/inline = pro. I, too, would scoff when somebody would come in with a closed hold flute, even if it was a Haynes. I'd think "C'mon, let go of the brand envy and spend the money on the features."

Aside from the starter nickel Gemeinhardt I started on, I've never played anything else other than trying friend's horns here and there. My repairman basically has told me it is time for an overhaul and I'd rather upgrade instead. I was thinking exclusively about Yamaha (500,600,700 series), DiMedici, Sonare (for the magical headjoint I've heard about) and maybe (just maybe) Altus because I read a couple of posts here. I'd pick between those and try to find one for the best price.

Now, you've all got me thinking about why I need the open holes? or the B-foot (I'm reading this thinking Damn, that roller IS a gigantic pain in the ***)? I had already decided to go offset G (whee, my one rebellious move).

So, for somebody like me who is now rethinking this whole thing, what should I start with? What should I play first or what is more readily available? I'm in Chicago so the the Woodwind/Brasswind is close by but their on-hand inventory is not what it used to be (I was there playing oboes and piccs last week). Thanks for all the thoughts.

Michael

 

[OboeGuy]

Just a quick note,

Most of the teachers now (at least that ones that I've been in contact with through school or just student's of other teachers) are pushing Offset G. NC School of the Arts and Carnegie Melon are just 2 that I can think of off the top of my head. I can't remember which flutist it was, but there was a debate on the inline/offset thing, and the inline proved to have problems with muscles a lot more than people who played offset. I myself play an offset G, open hole and low B foot. The B foot not only just plays the low b, but the gizmo key helps for some of the higher register notes (C and C# to name a couple)

 

[evage]

"So, for somebody like me who is now rethinking this whole thing, what should I start with?" The answer to that is start and stay with a good quality flute, closed hole, offset G C foot. Anything different than that is a lot of hustle and very-very few benefits, if any.
Who offers undisputed quality? Many, Muramatsu and Sankyo are examples that there is no chance of going wrong even with their basic models.

 

[RootyTootoot]

I am slightly concerned that in place of one myth (ie "open-hole flutes sound better"), SOTW may be advancing another (ie "open-hole flutes are much more difficult to play than closed-hole flutes").

Maybe?

 

[Tibbiecow]

I have a plugged inline G which is actually comfortable for my own left hand. What is not comfortable is trying to reach the footjoint cluster with my right pinky; this is only really possible without screwing up my pinky, with the RH 2 and RH3 plugged. My fingers are long, but of course my pinky is shorter, and my hands are VERY narrow for the length of my fingers. I can't fit gloves unless they are elastic/stretchy. I can practice 2-3 hours per day, on inline G OR offset, and not have left hand soreness. IMHO, inline G is going to be OK, especially with an open hole plugged, for a few folks.
But- for many (and I'd say probably most), the offset G will be either better than, or equal to, the inline for ergonomics. You will see used flutes for sale, and an offset G is already demanding more money than an inline. Folks buying that 'perfect' flute for their child for college, do a little research and find out that an inline G might lead to hand problems, so they want to buy the offset.

Very, very good used flutes can be bought at a pretty big discount because they have closed holes, and/or a C footjoint. There is a smaller discount developing now on used inline G flutes. You can plug the G, and even perhaps put a key extension on the G key, if that perfect flute at the perfect price has inline, and you wanted offsed, G.

 

[SopAlto1]

You're probably referring to Jeannie Baxtresser, who had to leave her job as Principle in the NY Phil, because of tendonitis or carpal tunnel, etc.

She's an extreme example, but I think that it all has to do with the size of your hands & fingers. (girth?)

I'm a freak, a very large man, with big hands, but skinny, almost girly, fingers. (ok, I'll admit it, I have skinny fingertips)

If I had fatter fingers, it wouldn't matter that much.

Just a quick note,

Most of the teachers now (at least that ones that I've been in contact with through school or just student's of other teachers) are pushing Offset G. NC School of the Arts and Carnegie Melon are just 2 that I can think of off the top of my head. I can't remember which flutist it was, but there was a debate on the inline/offset thing, and the inline proved to have problems with muscles a lot more than people who played offset. I myself play an offset G, open hole and low B foot. The B foot not only just plays the low b, but the gizmo key helps for some of the higher register notes (C and C# to name a couple)

 

[kymarto]

FWIW I much prefer inline G, and I have flutes of both flavors. For me it has to do with supporting the flute on the pad at the bottom of the LH index finger: I find it more secure with my hand more parallel to the flute--the position needed for inline G. However I am also left-handed and have a relatively long ring finger. YMMV

Toby

 

[evage]

I really can't see how an inline G can be better for an average right handed person.

 

[kymarto]

I really can't see how an inline G can be better for an average right handed person.

Please don't forget that almost every top flutist up to about 10 years ago used a flute with inline G, and they are still very widely used by pros. This would hardly be the case if there were really a decided advantage to the offset G.

All told, the difference is minimal: a matter of turning the wrist by several degrees. Yes, it may feel a bit strange at first, but one gets used to it within a matter of days.

The point is that while there is no great advantage to the inline G for players, neither is there any great disadvantage.

Toby

 

[evage]

It is very crucial how someone starts. If someone starts with in line G and open holes, it's highly likely that will continue so. I don't know when offset G was introduced, but it isn't very old. So, there's a massive base of players who started before it existed. These things don't change overnight. I'm relatively new to the flute and I had to decide about the configuration. Offset G came as the natural choice, so obviously advantageous. It helps not overtwisting lower left hand fingers. I respect people who learned with inline continuing so, but if they were to decide now, I think they'd go offset. In Europe today, you hardly see any inline G flutes being sold, that's my positive impression.

 

[SopAlto1]

In the US, it all goes back to the influence of the French.

In the late 1800s & turn of the last century, to "beef up" the newly formed symphonies & add improvements in the USA, many of them hired European musicians. The woodwind players that came here to play were mainly from France. (including, on clarinet, Alexandre Selmer, one of the founders of Selmer)

These French flutists brought their "French Flutes" with them to the US, which, surprisingly, had OPEN HOLES.

These French players taught & influenced the US players, including the 1st great US virtuoso & teacher, William Kinciad, who was "instrumental" in pushing the attitude that an open hole flute was more advanced than closed.

Also, Haynes copied the great George Barreres Louis Lot flute, to form the design of their own metal flutes.

Powell was really enamored by the old Louis Lots & tried to make his version too. I also read that, in his opinion, he felt, for playing & sound purposed, that a closed hole, offset probably was better & more stable, but esthetically, he loved the look of the inline G, open-hole much better.

 

[kymarto]

It is very crucial how someone starts. If someone starts with in line G and open holes, it's highly likely that will continue so. I don't know when offset G was introduced, but it isn't very old. So, there's a massive base of players who started before it existed. These things don't change overnight. I'm relatively new to the flute and I had to decide about the configuration. Offset G came as the natural choice, so obviously advantageous. It helps not overtwisting lower left hand fingers. I respect people who learned with inline continuing so, but if they were to decide now, I think they'd go offset. In Europe today, you hardly see any inline G flutes being sold, that's my positive impression.

Offset G was Boehm's original design. It existed before inline G. Actually Marcel Moyse took it all one step further, with the LH ring finger key having an offset touch as well as a further offset touch on G, something like the keywork on an alto flute. It never caught on. I'm telling you guys, it is all fashion. Before it was all inline G, now everyone poo-poos the inline G and proclaims that offset G is God. It is, as the spiritual masters say, neither this nor that. The difference is minimal, the extra few degrees of rotation easily accomodated by the wrist and shoulder, which are also in a totally unnatural position even with the offset G. If people think it is a problem, then it is a problem. If not, it is not. I have both open hole inline G flutes and offset plateau flutes, and I hardly notice the difference when switching from one to the other.

Toby

 

[evage]

Oh, I didn't know the original Boehm's design was the offset G. You're probably right Kymarto that the difference is minimal when it's a plateau flute, I don't know when you have an open hole and you try to center on the hole on the G key. Manufacturers experiment from time to time, sometimes a different design catches, sometimes it doesn't. Anyway, I feel fine with the offset plateau and I'm staying that way' although I started on open hole.

 

[asaxman]

I've played both open and closed hole flutes, am a self taught flute player, plus I play Marshall Tucker and the like in rock n roll bands. I have no need, or desire to play an open hole flute and think they are a pain in general, IMHO.

Of course you feel like that! Us who have studied classical flute, or play jazz, may have a different opinion. I agree that closed hole flutes are great, but I'm used to the open hole, with a low B for jazz. I love slides, (not quarter tones, listen to Steve Kujala with Chick Corea, he's sliding all over the place, of course his dad was the picc player in the Chicago Orch). I can play an open hole flute all day, every day, and have no finger or wrist problems, and have since 1971. I have long fingers, but that doesn't matter because open hole flutes now have the off set G.

 

[flautist]

I just wanted to make a couple of comments on open vs closed hole flutes.

First, the comment was made that the open hole flute sounds different. From the players perspective, this is true. That is, more open keys provide more sound to the player whose right ear is just a few inches from the keys. But, get across the room and there is no difference.

Second, there are several comments to the effect that plugging an open hole flute ruins the tuning. The most reliable info I've found is that open hole flutes have lower key heights in recognition of the fact that they have greater venting via the hole in the key. After venting exceeds a certain point, it makes no difference. Thus, what can happen is that a precisely (min key height) open hole flute will be under-vented with plugs in it. This can certainly affect the pitch, making it more flat as if the lower keys were not compeletely open. Solution - raising the key heights a couple of .01's on the next trip to the shop.

I actually have this problem as I recently got a Guo Grenaditte flute (only available open hole, inline G, B foot). Clearly, the plugs cause issues, especially in sounding the top notes. The shop I got it from will raise the key heights for me without charge under the warranty as I made it clear from the initial coversation that I would always play the flute with plugs.

Dave Harris

 

[Mac D]

Okay, I've decided to throw in my perspective on the topic.

I've had the luxury of playing probably one of the most expensive flutes in the world excluding Powell 365 and Louis Lot 1375 (look these two flutes up if you don't believe me). It was an Albert Cooper Platinum flute owned by a Swedish soloist, Cooper made 94 flutes and this guy owned one of the two (I believe) platinum flutes by Cooper, a silver flute by Cooper, the only nickel-silver flute by Cooper, and the only two piccolos (keyed to low C) by cooper. This was fairly early in my flute playing days and really couldn't appreciate it for what it was, but it was CLOSED HOLE!

Now that I've settled that, the question is what is the purpose of open tone holes? Nobody has really seemed to address that idea.

In the early 18th century, flute makers started experimenting with making finger holes larger, thus giving the flute more volume. This was made famous by British soloist Charles Nicholson (who later influenced Theobald Boehm). Now the problem you might imagine with this trend is that peoples hards are only so big and only people with extremely large and dexterous hands can play flutes with large finger holes. Now queue entrance of Theobald Boehm.

After being impressed with the sound of Mr Nicholson, Boehm set out to make flutes with larger (and more evenly spaced) tone holes. His first system looked similar to that of a clarinet with ring system key closures that were still covered by the finger tips. After some success with this key system he continued his work. He also abandoned the conical bore and adopted a parabolically shaped headjoint bore, but that a lesson for a different time. He concluded that for optimum tone he needed tone holes larger than those capable of being covered by fingers, so he designed the modern flute, which has remained fundamental uncharged since being introduced by Boehm in 1847.

The new flute was licensed to Rundall & Rose in London and Godfroy and Lot in Paris. The French school adopted (have you guessed?) French flutes! Ah yes, to the open hole flute. It's the French's fault, the flute was modified by Godfroy & Lot to have even open holes, giving it yes more resonance.

Okay, so we've gotten that far. Why do we play (or don't play) open holed flutes? The are slightly more resonant than their closed hole brethren. Does that make the flute better? No, not really. Why do we play inline G keys? Because somebody along the way decided that it looks good and we've never been able to rid ourself of that stigma.

Can anybody answer the question of Open vs. Closed holes for you? Not really, it's a personal thing. I doubt most conservatory flutist can really push the envelope between open and closed holes, let alone most doublers. If you can get a good sound on a closed hole flute, why change? While open holes are touted as 'professional', that's a complete load of crap (see Albert Cooper flute analogy above). Although I would HIGHLY advise against getting an open hole flute and closing the holes. Flute companies actually tune the flute different for open and closed hole models. Yes, that's right, change the placement of the tone holes!

Okay, now you know why there are open tone holes so you can make an informed decision. But if you want my 2-cents, the best way to help you playing is to slap a GOOD headjoint on whatever flute you've got (I play a lovely little silver number by David Williams with a 14k riser) on a Sankyo Artist flute (by the way, it is open hole AND inline). This is the most efficient way to get a good sound from you flute with having to sell a kidney.

That's all for now, folks. Hope you took something from this little history lesson. Have fun playing!

 

[Gordon (NZ)]

... Why do we play (or don't play) open holed flutes? The are slightly more resonant than their closed hole brethren.

I am curious as to exactly what you mean by "resonant".
Also, where does this information come from?
And what is the reason for this greater resonance?
(I can think of at least one reason why I would expect the sound to be duller for at least some players.)

Flute companies actually tune the flute different for open and closed hole models. Yes, that's right, change the placement of the tone holes!...

I seriously wonder if this is an urban myth, because plugging the holes in practice makes so little if any difference to tuning. A minute change in embouchure, or a few degrees change in air temperature make far greater changes to tuning.

If it is true, then I am interested in what real evidence there is this is currently being done, and by which manufacturers.