[25clarinets]

I felt that this topic could be considered a survey of sorts. Keep in mind, I am a fifteen year old kid, which means that my knowledge is severely incomplete. I only come at this very general, possibly unanswerable, question from the perspective of a high school band student who has thought a little about this. So, I'll start with a question:

"What is your favorite analogy for Music?"

I have thought a little bit about the analogy between music and (natural)language. These two things have some obvious similarities:

1. They both describe how we feel.

Language is one of the best tools that humans have at their disposal for telling how they feel. It would be very hard to describe how we feel without the languages we have. In a similar manner, music is a way of communicating our feelings and our identity. Both language and music complement each other. There are things that can't be explicitly stated with music that can be stated precisely with language. Similarly, there are certain things in this world that are ineffable; they can't be understood in terms of words. Music helps in the understanding of the ineffable. In this way, music and language both describe how we feel.

2. Both music and language can be used as signals.

Someone yells, "Watch out for that truck!" You turn around and you see a truck about to run into you, so you get out of the way. The words of the circumspect warned you that you are in danger. They signaled that there was a truck coming your way. If the circumspect onlooker had not said those words, it may have been too late. In a different way, music also serves as a signal. For example, when a wedding starts, a certain tune plays. When this tune is played, the people present know that things are about to start. The music is a signal. It conveys information. Similar things could be said about the menacing music played when something interesting happens on a movie of some sort.

3. Both music and language have beautiful structure.

This could probably be written endlessly on. This third theme can even subsume the other two. I'll just say that there is a way of doing things in each natural language, and the way sentences and phrases are constructed are very beautiful. Similarly, the way music can be constructed in unexpected and creative ways is ineffable. This is all I will say on the structure of music and language

Do you guys have any thoughts on the nature of music? What other analogies are there? What are your favorite ones?

 

[MartinMusicMan]

Music is magic.

 

[piwikiwi]

Music and language also originated around the same time. We don't know what came first and there are a lot of discussions about it. I have a great book about music and language Music, Language, and the Brain by Dr A. D. Patel but it is quite difficult(and expensive). There are a lot of similarities but also a lot of differences.

 

[jasonm71]

Your comments on the parallels of music and language are very insightful. I like to think of this analogy working because they are both ways of communicating. I also like to draw comparisons to other forms of art, like dance and visual arts. In regards to visual art, I like to point out that even though many of the great artists in history had good technique and ability, a classic work of art touches people because of what it says or is representing it, not just how it is represented or executed. Likewise, great music touches people not just through virtuosity, but through the honesty and individuality of the music performed.

 

[25clarinets]

Your comments on the parallels of music and language are very insightful. I like to think of this analogy working because they are both ways of communicating. I also like to draw comparisons to other forms of art, like dance and visual arts. In regards to visual art, I like to point out that even though many of the great artists in history had good technique and ability, a classic work of art touches people because of what it says or is representing it, not just how it is represented or executed. Likewise, great music touches people not just through virtuosity, but through the honesty and individuality of the music performed.

Thank you. I have learned a great deal from perusing this forum for nearly two years. It has been very helpful.

 

[Little Sax]

Your comments on the parallels of music and language are very insightful. I like to think of this analogy working because they are both ways of communicating. I also like to draw comparisons to other forms of art, like dance and visual arts. In regards to visual art, I like to point out that even though many of the great artists in history had good technique and ability, a classic work of art touches people because of what it says or is representing it, not just how it is represented or executed. Likewise, great music touches people not just through virtuosity, but through the honesty and individuality of the music performed.

I think this touches on the expression of "truth". The way I understand it, there are four general ways to express truth (in no particular order): Science, Mythology, Psychology, and Art. Each has particular strengths and weaknesses.

If you want to express or measure something empirically, "science" is your best bet.

If you want to express an emotion, "art" is an excellent way to go.

If we take the "horrors of war" as an example. This concept can be described by all four expression types, but some would argue that "art" holds primacy with such works as Picasso's Guernica:

I believe music works the same way and therefore, as the OP suggests, works very well as a language.

 

[25clarinets]

I think this touches on the expression of "truth". The way I understand it, there are four general ways to express truth (in no particular order): Science, Mythology, Psychology, and Art. Each has particular strengths and weaknesses.

If you want to express or measure something empirically, "science" is your best bet.

If you want to express an emotion, "art" is an excellent way to go.

If we take the "horrors of war" as an example. This concept can be described by all four expression types, but some would argue that "art" holds primacy with such works as Picasso's Guernica:

I believe music works the same way and therefore, as the OP suggests, works very well as a language.

That's an interesting way to think about the expression of truth. It seems like truth (at least, in some cases) is most powerfully expressed in some combination of those four elements. For example, the great German mathematician Emil Artin, who was also an accomplished musician, said that mathematics is an art. He felt that his job was to express to students the sturctural beauty of mathematics. I think that Artin was saying that the combining of the standard precision of mathematics and creativity more akin to the humanities and art produces the greatest way to express the structural beauty to the students. Therefore, in order to be a mathematician of great standing, you must let the right brain and the left brain to interact. I think many(but not all)truths can be expressed most effectively by letting the right brain and left brain colloborate.

 

[Souportwenty]

Music: If I could explain it, I wouldn't have to play it...

"Talking about music is like dancing about architecture"
Laurie Anderson

(there is no easy answer here...)

 

[25clarinets]

Music: If I could explain it, I wouldn't have to play it...

"Talking about music is like dancing about architecture"
Laurie Anderson

(there is no easy answer here...)

I agree (to a certain degree). I just felt like stimulating some thought on this, and I wanted to get other perspectives to inform my musings.

 

[Little Sax]

That's an interesting way to think about the expression of truth. It seems like truth (at least, in some cases) is most powerfully expressed in some combination of those four elements. For example, the great German mathematician Emil Artin, who was also an accomplished musician, said that mathematics is an art. He felt that his job was to express to students the sturctural beauty of mathematics. I think that Artin was saying that the combining of the standard precision of mathematics and creativity more akin to the humanities and art produces the greatest way to express the structural beauty to the students. Therefore, in order to be a mathematician of great standing, you must let the right brain and the left brain to interact. I think many(but not all)truths can be expressed most effectively by letting the right brain and left brain colloborate.

It can be argued that Math and Music are abstracts of one another (especially in our Western approach to music).
Many great mathematicians and engineers were also philosophers and/or artists/musicians (i.e. Leonardo da Vinci, Rene Descartes, Gottfried Leibniz, etc.,).

As much as modern math and engineering curricula like to ignore this historical link, I think they go hand-in-hand.

 

[25clarinets]

It can be argued that Math and Music are abstracts of one another (especially in our Western approach to music).
Many great mathematicians and engineers were also philosophers and/or artists/musicians (i.e. Leonardo da Vinci, Rene Descartes, Gottfried Leibniz, etc.,).

As much as modern math and engineering curricula like to ignore this historical link, I think they go hand-in-hand.

I can kind of understand what you're getting at, but I need to think about it a little more. By abstracts, do you mean to say they are like two sides of the same coin, or like different fingers on the same hand?

 

[Little Sax]

I can kind of understand what you're getting at, but I need to think about it a little more. By abstracts, do you mean to say they are like two sides of the same coin, or like different fingers on the same hand?

One definition of abstract is:

something that concentrates in itself the essential qualities of anything more extensive or more general, or of several things; essence.

Following one of your earlier posts, you could think of it more as right brain vs. left brain approaches to the same general concept.

Many believe that equations are boring and lifeless, but presentation matters.
Fractals are interesting, have real world applications, and (I believe) can be beautiful:

If you look at music from a Western perspective, everything is a subdivision or multiple (whether in time or frequency). As musicians we try to embed that "math" into our psyche so that we can create new musical ideas or express ourselves though others' compositions. (By comparison, some African music is less about subdivisions and more about additive rhythms. ...it's still math but from a different mindset.)

Some composers are even using fractals as inspiration for their compositions.

 

[Souportwenty]

Ok, how about this...

Music is a communication of thought and emotion that defies translation. In the same way the utterance of the word "chair" conjures up a picture in the mind of something one sits on, playing a Cm chord may go directly to an emotional response that does not filter through any picture in the mind's eye.

 

[25clarinets]

One definition of abstract is:
Following one of your earlier posts, you could think of it more as right brain vs. left brain approaches to the same general concept.

Many believe that equations are boring and lifeless, but presentation matters.
Fractals are interesting, have real world applications, and (I believe) can be beautiful:

If you look at music from a Western perspective, everything is a subdivision or multiple (whether in time or frequency). As musicians we try to embed that "math" into our psyche so that we can create new musical ideas or express ourselves though others' compositions. (By comparison, some African music is less about subdivisions and more about additive rhythms. ...it's still math but from a different mindset.)

Some composers are even using fractals as inspiration for their compositions.

That is an intriguing idea.

 

[piwikiwi]

One definition of abstract is:
Following one of your earlier posts, you could think of it more as right brain vs. left brain approaches to the same general concept.

Many believe that equations are boring and lifeless, but presentation matters.
Fractals are interesting, have real world applications, and (I believe) can be beautiful:

If you look at music from a Western perspective, everything is a subdivision or multiple (whether in time or frequency). As musicians we try to embed that "math" into our psyche so that we can create new musical ideas or express ourselves though others' compositions. (By comparison, some African music is less about subdivisions and more about additive rhythms. ...it's still math but from a different mindset.)

Some composers are even using fractals as inspiration for their compositions.

Harmony is only found in western music(with a few exceptions), which is interesting because arab and indian music have more notes in an octave(more dissonant)

 

[Fernando Carranza]

Music and language are linked, but music can touch emotions, feelings in a manner that language can do it. Its for me the highest level of artistical expression.

 

[TonyM]

I think music and language are very different things. Mathematics and language (and the visual arts for that matter) are essentially models of the world. They are, at their core, either imitative or descriptive. Music is something else. What it is, I've got no idea, but it is definately something else.

 

[Dog Pants]

The way I've come to think of it...

The Universe has a rhythm to it. The heavens move in an ordered and harmonious way. The elements combine according to certain physical laws.

Mathemeatics, Physics, Abstract Art and Music all attempt to express Divine Universal law. Music, encompasses the whole of that law. Music can experess mathematics (Bach for example) and Mathematic can express music (name any College Jazz Curriculum) but Music addresses more of the phenomena or universal laws than does Mathematics in that Music can express the emotional and spiritual aspects of our reality, which Mathematics has not yet fully come to terms with. The Arts have traditionally expressed these aspects but of the arts, Music again is far more encompassing than dance or the visual arts. Science does a wonderful job of explaining the interaction of various parts to create a sum greater (or lesser) than the its parts. In music we call this harmony. The world we live in, our very selves are nothing more than patterns interacting with patterns. From our DNA sequences, to the periodic table, to fractals, to the great symphonic works. Patterns and how they interact and influence one another.

It is no coincidence that an attraction to music is such a strong indicator of above average intelligence and why so many of superior intelligence find Mathematics, Science, Music etc to be of equal and inseperable importance to an understanding of the nature of our existence.

It's a fascinating field and a worthwhile and enjoyable one to study.

 

[TonyM]

The way I've come to think of it...

The Universe has a rhythm to it. The heavens move in an ordered and harmonious way. The elements combine according to certain physical laws.

Mathemeatics, Physics, Abstract Art and Music all attempt to express Divine Universal law. Music, encompasses the whole of that law. Music can experess mathematics (Bach for example) and Mathematic can express music (name any College Jazz Curriculum) but Music addresses more of the phenomena or universal laws than does Mathematics in that Music can express the emotional and spiritual aspects of our reality, which Mathematics has not yet fully come to terms with. The Arts have traditionally expressed these aspects but of the arts, Music again is far more encompassing than dance or the visual arts. Science does a wonderful job of explaining the interaction of various parts to create a sum greater (or lesser) than the its parts. In music we call this harmony. The world we live in, our very selves are nothing more than patterns interacting with patterns. From our DNA sequences, to the periodic table, to fractals, to the great symphonic works. Patterns and how they interact and influence one another.

It is no coincidence that an attraction to music is such a strong indicator of above average intelligence and why so many of superior intelligence find Mathematics, Science, Music etc to be of equal and inseperable importance to an understanding of the nature of our existence.

It's a fascinating field and a worthwhile and enjoyable one to study.

This is not what was going through my mind as I was listening to Gary Glitter yesterday. But, all Gary Glitter jokes aside, I think what you say is very poetic but is there evidence for any of it? There's certainly nothing wrong in thinking what you say but you put this forward as a field of study so I would have thought that evidence would come into play at some stage. And when you start to talk about people of superior intelligence, then I would think that the evidence starts to work against you.

 

[saxpiece]

Music is just organized tones that are organized by another human or humans, usually in a certain way so that it might end up being appealing to some humans and if it's not appealing to some humans then it is noise to them.

If some want to include Birds etc as music, well birds do organize tones mainly to do with mating and territory etc.

One persons noise is another music.

I don't think of intricate mathematical patterns abounding around the cosmos when I hear Justin Bieber.

Music can result in invoking emotional responses from people but it depends how the person is wired for sound and how they end up processing it all.

One of the limitations of music is that certain patterns seem to invoke certain emotional responses and these patterns can tend to be used as a formula over and over again.

Some music can be used as torture.

Some people don't like music much at all.

Some deaf people never even hear music and they can still engage in a lot of other things in life.

Same thing basically goes for visual arts.