[area51recording]

Hi all....I saw a couple of similar threads on here talking about this, but I didn't want to resurrect one and create a "Zombie" thread, so.....
I've had this issue for a bit now, and it's really frustrating me. On tenor, after I've been playing for a while, I start to get notes in the second octave that want to sound an octave lower. It seems to happen more often if I tongue the note, and it feels like I have to "pull" the note up to where it's supposed to be, it almost feels like somehow my tongue/jaw is in too low a position, but I don't feel like I've changed anything from earlier in the practice session. Another variable is whatever mouthpiece I play. I have a Dukoff "stubby" 7 and a Morgan 7L, both of which I love the sound of, but on both pieces after playing a while I get this effect often. I also have a Vandoren V16 HR 6, which plays well but to me feels quite a bit more resistant than my other 2 pieces. When I switch to the Vandoren I don't get the octave jump hardly at all, but I just don't dig the sound as much as the Dukoff or the Morgan. I'm using Plasticover 2-1/2 reeds on all three pieces. I have the issue on both my horns, late '50's Mk6 and early '60's 10m. I know it's still possible for it to be a mechanical issue, but I really think it's more about me, some kind of weird embouchure or support thing....any tips on how to proceed would be greatly appreciated.....thanks!

 

[saxoclese]

A couple of thoughts from my years of teaching. First when something happens more often when a note is tongued it generally indicates: 1) the tongue is moving too great a distance inside the mouth 2) the tongue goes to an "unnatural shape" when tonguing, or 3) the jaw or chin moves when one tongues the notes. An example would be tonguing a first octave note with a "tee" syllable rather than "tah", "too" or "dah" which raises the back of the tongue. A worse case example would also be tonguing with the back of the tongue rather than the tip with a "guh". Some students actually teach themselves to tongue like this.

An effective technique is to "force" the octave jump without using the octave key, much like playing overtones. "Ahh" for the low octave, and "Eee" for the upper octave is one method of doing this along with changing the speed and direction of the air. The idea is that if you develop the control to turn the octave leap on and off at will, you can also prevent it from happening when it is not wanted. A technique I learned from my teacher is to blow the note first on your airstream like an airy sounding whistle and then play the note with the same shape inside the mouth and airstream.

There are a host of other causes for an octave leap including accidentally bumping or touching a key, biting on the reed, and restricting the throat, not to mention a small leak in the upper part of the saxophone that "weakens" the strength of the fundamental allowing the first harmonic to take charge. Good luck. Hope some of these ideas help.

 

[AddictedToSax]

Probably something going on in your throat as saxoclese says. The same kind of thing happens to me when I play alto after having played tenor for a while. On tenor I strive to open the back of my throat as much as possible. When I go to alto it needs a little more firmness in the throat. AT least that's how it is for me. I get the octave jump sometimes but more often if I don't give the mouthpiece enough support I get a very loud and embarrassing squawk.

 

[area51recording]

any thoughts as to why the more resistant setup (the Vandoren V16) seems to cause less of the issue?

 

[mijderf]

any thoughts as to why the more resistant setup (the Vandoren V16) seems to cause less of the issue?

Perhaps the extra resistance you experience affects your throat and embouchure when you play the Vandoren. Pay attention to different sensations in your throat when you play these pieces. It may provide a clue.

 

[area51recording]

Perhaps the extra resistance you experience affects your throat and embouchure when you play the Vandoren. Pay attention to different sensations in your throat when you play these pieces. It may provide a clue.

That is a distinct possibility

 

[Dr G]

I know it's still possible for it to be a mechanical issue, but I really think it's more about me, some kind of weird embouchure or support thing...

Have you ever worked on playing the full range of the instrument WITHOUT using the octave key? If not, give it a try, then see if your problem goes away. :bluewink:

 

[area51recording]

Have you ever worked on playing the full range of the instrument WITHOUT using the octave key? If not, give it a try, then see if your problem goes away. :bluewink:

I have not tried that! I'll check that out.....

 

[JL]

It's also possible that both horns have leaks. How long has it been since you've had those horns checked out by your tech?

As others have pointed out, it could certainly be an embouchure issue, but I'd want to know for certain that the horns aren't leaking.

 

[area51recording]

It's also possible that both horns have leaks. How long has it been since you've had those horns checked out by your tech?

As others have pointed out, it could certainly be an embouchure issue, but I'd want to know for certain that the horns aren't leaking.

I thought about that too.....probably going to be a bit before I can get to my sax guy though, given our current situation. One thing I notice is I get a LOT less of this when I absolutely make sure my support is strong. Probably getting a bit too lazy in that dept.

 

[JL]

One thing I notice is I get a LOT less of this when I absolutely make sure my support is strong. Probably getting a bit too lazy in that dept.

Keep in mind that you can play through leaks by adjusting your embouchure. Players often do this without even realizing it as leaks develop gradually and they adjust subconsciously. On more than one occasion when I haven't had the horn checked out in some time (maybe a year or more of daily playing) I've taken it in thinking it's been playing just fine only to find out it has a few leaks and needs a couple pads changed. After that, the difference is striking and I realize I was working way too hard playing the horn.

Again, I'm not saying your horn is leaking for certain, but that it is a likely explanation for the octave jumping you describe.

 

[area51recording]

Yeah, true....I'm guessing BOTH my babies need some TLC, it's been a while, but today I practiced a bunch with the Morgan 7L on my Selmer, REALLY making sure I was supporting the whole time, and it felt great with NONE of the octave jump issues at all! I REALLY love the way the Morgan (and the Dukoff) are just so free blowing on both my horns, but because of that I guess I REALLY have to make sure I'm adequately supporting all the time. With the Vandoren it feels like there's more to blow against, and I think at least for me that can lead to becoming a little lazy about support...

 

[milandro]

Hi all....I saw a couple of similar threads on here talking about this, but I didn't want to resurrect one and create a "Zombie" thread, so.....
I've had this issue for a bit now, and it's really frustrating me. On tenor, after I've been playing for a while, I start to get notes in the second octave that want to sound an octave lower. It seems to happen more often if I tongue the note, and it feels like I have to "pull" the note up to where it's supposed to be, it almost feels like somehow my tongue/jaw is in too low a position, but I don't feel like I've changed anything from earlier in the practice session. Another variable is whatever mouthpiece I play. I have a Dukoff "stubby" 7 and a Morgan 7L, both of which I love the sound of, but on both pieces after playing a while I get this effect often. I also have a Vandoren V16 HR 6, which plays well but to me feels quite a bit more resistant than my other 2 pieces. When I switch to the Vandoren I don't get the octave jump hardly at all, but I just don't dig the sound as much as the Dukoff or the Morgan. I'm using Plasticover 2-1/2 reeds on all three pieces. I have the issue on both my horns, late '50's Mk6 and early '60's 10m. I know it's still possible for it to be a mechanical issue, but I really think it's more about me, some kind of weird embouchure or support thing....any tips on how to proceed would be greatly appreciated.....thanks!

There are no zombie threads, you can just follow up any old thread and will get equal visibility as a new one + all the participants still around will get an email alert.

Anyway

have you checked that you don't turn the neck too much of both your horns so that you minutely open the octave key? I would check that.

Another possibility is that your reeds are old and now very thin and that you are forcing the second harmonic (the octave) through pushing more than the reed can take