[Eljaggo]

Hello, I recently took up the alto sax after playing the trumpet for millions of years. The breathing and articulation are very similar, and I have been able to progress quite quickly. However I have a problem. I am getting a noise in my mouth/throat.

I have checked that my soft palate is closed, which it is. My teacher thought it may be because my cheeks are slightly puffed, but the problem remains when they are fully tightened. The noise happens when I play on the mouthpiece alone, so it is not the instrument and so I cannot blame the tools!

I am playing a Selmer S80C* with grade 2 reeds. I have tried using harder reeds, but the problem persists. I have bought a Selmer S80D to see if that helps, but would like to know if anyone knows what is causing the problem, and how it can be fixed.

 

[Maddcow]

Are you sure that you're tonguing notes correctly? What you've described could be that your tongue position or technique is incorrect. Perhaps you could post some audio?

 

[Eljaggo]

Are you sure that you're tonguing notes correctly? What you've described could be that your tongue position or technique is incorrect. Perhaps you could post some audio?

I'm fairly sure my tonguing is OK Maddcow. That was given the OK by my teacher, and is in any case the same technique as the trumpet where I no problems. Besides, the problem is not at the start of the note but for its duration - especially towards the end of long phrases, and seems to be coming from around the sinus/ear region - perhaps something to do with the eustacian tubes. I don't think an audio post wouldn't pick up the noise.

 

[click]

I'm fairly sure my tonguing is OK Maddcow. That was given the OK by my teacher, and is in any case the same technique as the trumpet where I no problems. Besides, the problem is not at the start of the note but for its duration - especially towards the end of long phrases, and seems to be coming from around the sinus/ear region - perhaps something to do with the eustacian tubes. I don't think an audio post wouldn't pick up the noise.

The double negative at the end is a typo.

Your teacher cannot hear anything.

With these assumptions, I think a trip to the doctor might be in order.

I like your eustachian tube theory.

Perhaps having the jaw slightly wider (to allow the mpc between teeth)

explains why you would have this condition when playing sax and not trumpet.

 

[lydian]

Sounds like a medical condition, not anything related to technique. I've never come across this in my 40 years of playing and teaching.

 

[datsaxman]

Program note: In some languages (e.g. English), two negatives in a sentence cancel.

In many other languages, two negatives simply reinforce the meaning, and do not cancel at all.
I think the meaning was clear: An audio sample of the OP playing would not capture the noise.

 

[datsaxman]

I'm fairly sure my tonguing is OK Maddcow. That was given the OK by my teacher, and is in any case the same technique as the trumpet where I no problems. Besides, the problem is not at the start of the note but for its duration - especially towards the end of long phrases, and seems to be coming from around the sinus/ear region - perhaps something to do with the eustacian tubes. I don't think an audio post wouldn't pick up the noise.

Soooo ... what does the noise sound like to you? What does it feel like when it is happening? When does it not happen? Can you concentrate on making it not happen and get it to stop for a second or two?

 

[click]

Program note: In some languages (e.g. English), two negatives in a sentence cancel.

In many other languages, two negatives simply reinforce the meaning, and do not cancel at all.
I think the meaning was clear: An audio sample of the OP playing would not capture the noise.

I wouldn't never say that double negative in english cancel.

 

[Eljaggo]

Soooo ... what does the noise sound like to you? What does it feel like when it is happening? When does it not happen? Can you concentrate on making it not happen and get it to stop for a second or two?

It resonates with the note played and is a sort of nnnn. It seems to reduce the efficiency of the reed which then vibrates less strongly. So only some of the pressure from my diaphragm is used to vibrate the reed.

My teacher gave me a link to a flute player's website that gave a simple check for an open or leaking soft palate - and mine seems OK - no vibration at bridge of nose.

I can control it to some extent on longer notes by moving the airstream higher or lower in my oral cavity, but it is a hit or miss affair and not sustainable.

 

[adamk]

Weird,
I'm sure you would know if you were softly humming which would cause that effect.

 

[Eljaggo]

Correct - no humming.

 

[J-Moen]

As someone who has suffered from soft palate leak, it sounds very different than what you are dealing with. Soft palate leak won't really make a "nnn" sound, as it sound more like you're quietly trying to blow your nose, or air squeaking slowly through a small passage.

The 'nnnn' you are hearing seems like it would be audible only to you, so my thoughts would be that either a) accidentally humming the pitch as you are voicing for the note or b) medical/physical abnormality

 

[lydian]

Just spit-balling here, but maybe this is simply normal tooth conduction that's foreign to you as a brass player. Put a soft patch on your mouthpiece and see if that helps. All reed players hear/feel a certain amount of vibrations through their bones/teeth by virtue of the direct tooth contact with the mouthpiece. It may be a little disconcerting if you're not used to it.

 

[adamk]

Just spit-balling here, but maybe this is simply normal tooth conduction that's foreign to you as a brass player. Put a soft patch on your mouthpiece and see if that helps. All reed players hear/feel a certain amount of vibrations through their bones/teeth by virtue of the direct tooth contact with the mouthpiece. It may be a little disconcerting if you're not used to it.

Interesting idea.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I wouldn't never say that double negative in english cancel.

Wouldn't you never not say they don't not cancel? Or not?

 

[Eljaggo]

Interesting idea, mdavej, but I don't actually touch the MP with my top (or bottom) teeth - I use the remains of my trumpet embouchure to cushion the top of the MP and curl my lower lip over my lower teeth. (This perhaps gives me more control over tone) My top teeth occasionally touch the MP very slightly.
Having now tried different mouthpieces and reeds with no change, I now suspect it may be age related.

 

[Fader]

If your teacher can't hear it, and it's not audible on a recording maybe its not a problem - just a curiosity.

You mentioned you can control it a bit - perhaps you could try to make it louder in an effort to locate it.

You've probably already ruled out air leaking from the sides of your mouth...

 

[adamk]

Interesting idea, mdavej, but I don't actually touch the MP with my top (or bottom) teeth - I use the remains of my trumpet embouchure to cushion the top of the MP and curl my lower lip over my lower teeth. (This perhaps gives me more control over tone) My top teeth occasionally touch the MP very slightly.
Having now tried different mouthpieces and reeds with no change, I now suspect it may be age related.

A double lip embouchure.

 

[Eljaggo]

I have ruled out leakage from mouth and nose, Fader, and it is a vibration that causes the problem. This vibration reduces the pressure reaching the reed and if I pinch my nose when playing on the mp alone, the sound volume increases substantially.

 

[AddictedToSax]

Wouldn't you never not say they don't not cancel? Or not?

I ain't never going to say nothin' about the subject never again.

OP, you certainly have a strange condition, especially the part where you lose volume when it happens. I was going to suggest that perhaps some bony structure in your head was resonating with the reed. But when you say the sound decreases when it happens it sure sounds like some air is leaking somewhere. Can your teacher hear the decrease in sound or is it just you? I'm thinking if it's just you the Eustachian tube idea might warrant more exploration.