[clodius]

I need some help with this very pretty 1955 Zephyr that just arrived from Ebay.
The lacquer is very nice, so it has probably been relacquered, I don't know but it is very clean as you can see in the pictures.
The case is also in better shape than I am after 60 some years. It came with a King "A" mouthpiece that looks pretty good, some teeth marks that I covered up with a mouthpiece pad.

The pads are in good shape and it plays well except for a problem with the octave key which is staying open all of the time.
It seems to me the spring is holding the octave mechanism open instead of holding it closed. It is resisting me trying to move the end of the spring to the other side of the post.
I don't want to push or pull to hard on it, and given the current lockdown it's not likely that I can get it to a repair guy any time soon.

Suggestions are welcome, and everyone please enjoy the pictures of my new toy.

 

[skeller047]

Nice looking horn, congrats!

I'm not a tech but it looks to me as if the top octave key is bent, which would cause this problem. I see a weird mark near the ring end of the key, where the key forks into two pieces to attach to the ring - that looks like it could be a bend. The spring looks to be in the right place, don't move it. Is the key down when the horn is apart? I can't tell from the taken apart picture. If so, I would definitely suspect the key bend.

The other thing is that the part of the octave key mechanism that pushes the top octave key open sticks out pretty far. I don't know if that's common on King saxophones, but it looks pretty far away from the body to me. I also note that the screw holding in the body octave key is sticking out. Maybe a spring is off on this part of the instrument?

Take it to a tech, but you'll have to wait till the quarantine is lifted. it's probably an easy (that is, cheap) fix, and I would NOT recommend you fiddle with it yourself unless you know what you are doing. Octave key mechanisms are complicated and very easy to mess up.

 

[clodius]

Thanks Steve,
I hadn't noticed the problem you pointed out but I suspected it could just be bent somewhere. That is a common problem I have encountered buying horns off eBay. The seller wasn't a sax player, I don't know that he even put the horn together. He did pack it very well though.
I have a couple pictures showing the state of the neck mechanism. The first picture is not touching any key on the horn. The second picture is pushing down the octave key fingering a "G" to trigger the neck octave key to open.
If you look closely you can see it has moved a bit.
The third picture is forcing the mechanism to lay flat against the body of the horn. That seems to me what it "should" look like.
You are correct in that I should leave it until I can get someone that knows what they are doing to fix it. Chadd Berry has my Martins and he is awesome with the old horns.
The fourth picture has nothing to do with the octave key problem, it is just an awesome picture of the side of the horn looking at the bell brace and showing how clean the horn is!

 

[mijderf]

I'm looking at my 1950 Zephyr alto right now. When I use the octave key to open the neck pip, I can only just slide a quarter (as in coin) between the octave key lever and the neck tenon. Then if I finger G2 to switch to the body pip, the clearance between the octave key lever and the neck tenon drops to just a few layers of paper thick. Your octave lever is way too high. I have noticed that there is almost no play in the octave key mechanism on a Zephyr, so adjusting it to be correct might be a bit tricky.

 

[saxcop]

I agree they are tricky. Looks like a very nice horn. I am not convinced that its a relac. The engraving on Zephyrs is not deep and the pic of the engraving looks good. The case is in really good condition so that also points to original.

 

[bruce bailey]

I don't see a photo of the top of the neck alone, off the body. If the key is staying open off the body, then take the shaft steel off the neck and re-adjust the spring. However, it appears that the body lever is holding the neck key open.

 

[stomias]

Yeah, the finish looks very much like my '53-'54 tenor. When I had my Zeph overhauled, my tech said the octave mechanism is tricky though nothing on yours looks like it will take too much to fix. No major damage that is.

 

[GCinCT]

The spring is supposed to push the octave key open. I have a 1946 Super 20 and it's the same mechanism. There are springs that open the neck and body octave key, the spring on the key touch for the thumb has to be stronger than those springs to hold them closed when it is not depressed. The key touch spring should be the strongest spring in the mechanism.

 

[clodius]

I don't see a photo of the top of the neck alone, off the body. If the key is staying open off the body, then take the shaft steel off the neck and re-adjust the spring. However, it appears that the body lever is holding the neck key open.

The neck seems to be OK by itself. Everything moves freely.

 

[clodius]

Yeah, the finish looks very much like my '53-'54 tenor. When I had my Zeph overhauled, my tech said the octave mechanism is tricky though nothing on yours looks like it will take too much to fix. No major damage that is. View attachment 258266

No major damage yet! I need to keep my mitts off it so I don't break something.

Thanks!

 

[clodius]

I agree they are tricky. Looks like a very nice horn. I am not convinced that its a relac. The engraving on Zephyrs is not deep and the pic of the engraving looks good. The case is in really good condition so that also points to original.

Thanks, it would be awesome if this is original. Hopefully I can get up to WorldWideSax some time soon and compare the engraving to the one he has, and then get it fixed!

 

[turf3]

OK, what you've got is an issue with the mechanism on the body. If you can push the prong down against the body, and it stays there, but when you activate the octave it won't go all the way back down, then you've probably either got a spring that's come loose, or excessive friction somewhere, or a bent key that's binding. Look at all the places where there's sliding relative motion (typically cushioned with cork) and give each one of them a little cork grease to reduce friction. You can also unhook all the various springs and make sure each key moves freely with basically no force. If you find one that's binding then you'll need to pull out the axle and figure out whether the axle's bent (easy to fix), the tube's bent (more fiddly to fix) or the tube's too long and binding between posts. In that case it could (probably is) that a post got slightly bent. Come back and let us know what you find before bending or filing anything.

 

[clodius]

I'm looking at my 1950 Zephyr alto right now. When I use the octave key to open the neck pip, I can only just slide a quarter (as in coin) between the octave key lever and the neck tenon. Then if I finger G2 to switch to the body pip, the clearance between the octave key lever and the neck tenon drops to just a few layers of paper thick. Your octave lever is way too high. I have noticed that there is almost no play in the octave key mechanism on a Zephyr, so adjusting it to be correct might be a bit tricky.

That's really helpful. I do OK working on my truck most of the time. When it comes to working on the sax my skills drop off pretty much after getting the reed on the mouthpiece.

 

[CluelessEPA]

I would second the "no relac" comment. I have one of those with excellent original lacquer, and my case is much worse than yours.

 

[clodius]

I agree they are tricky. Looks like a very nice horn. I am not convinced that its a relac. The engraving on Zephyrs is not deep and the pic of the engraving looks good. The case is in really good condition so that also points to original.

Closet queen maybe?
It would be nice to know the history of the horn. Maybe I will bug the eBay seller, but I get the impression he got it at an estate sale or something. He doesn't play. Seems like a nice guy though.

 

[saxoclese]

Beautiful saxophone. I just overhauled one like it a while ago. The octave mechanism on those is "tricky" to say the least. If you could provide a few more close up photos showing a bit lower view of the octave mechanism from a couple of different angles, there is a possibility that myself or one of the other members who are techs could talk you through the fix. I don't think the problem is that something is bent, rather a piece of material has come unglued on the "arm" that holds the part that contacts the neck octave ring down in its "rest" position.

 

[lostcircuits]

I'm looking at my 1950 Zephyr alto right now. When I use the octave key to open the neck pip, I can only just slide a quarter (as in coin) between the octave key lever and the neck tenon. Then if I finger G2 to switch to the body pip, the clearance between the octave key lever and the neck tenon drops to just a few layers of paper thick. Your octave lever is way too high. I have noticed that there is almost no play in the octave key mechanism on a Zephyr, so adjusting it to be correct might be a bit tricky.

+1, it doesn't look like there is an issue with the octave mechanism on the neck but the actuator is way high. If opened, the lever should never come up as high as you show it in the picture where it almost falls out the guide post.

 

[bruce bailey]

The spring is supposed to push the octave key open. I have a 1946 Super 20 and it's the same mechanism. There are springs that open the neck and body octave key, the spring on the key touch for the thumb has to be stronger than those springs to hold them closed when it is not depressed. The key touch spring should be the strongest spring in the mechanism.

Which spring? The neck alone should have the spring closing the key.

 

[turf3]

Bruce, I think what's wrong is not on the neck, but in the mechanism on the body; the prong isn't retracting to the full retracted position when it should. Why, isn't known yet, without more inspection. My guess would be: a spring unhooked; excessive friction somewhere that two parts slide on each other; or a key not moving freely due to a bent rod or tube. As you know, some mechanisms rely on a stronger and a weaker spring to control switching back and forth between the neck vent and the body vent. So it's possible, if that's the way this one works, that it's the cause of the problem. Because I don't do this professionally, I'd have to have the thing in front of me to make any better speculations.

 

[lostcircuits]

Which spring? The neck alone should have the spring closing the key.

Correct, the neck octave spring should be strong enough to counteract the body octave mechanism

Bruce, I think what's wrong is not on the neck, but in the mechanism on the body; the prong isn't retracting to the full retracted position when it should. Why, isn't known yet, without more inspection. My guess would be: a spring unhooked; excessive friction somewhere that two parts slide on each other; or a key not moving freely due to a bent rod or tube. As you know, some mechanisms rely on a stronger and a weaker spring to control switching back and forth between the neck vent and the body vent. So it's possible, if that's the way this one works, that it's the cause of the problem. Because I don't do this professionally, I'd have to have the thing in front of me to make any better speculations.

Yes, exactly, there are typically two springs that need to be balanced for the mechanism to function correctly and either one of them (the one that pushes the lever/prong back) is unhooked or else, as Saxoclese suggested, a cork/felt came unglued or was put on incorrectly which would explain the prong coming up that high when it should never do that. Either way should be a relatively easy fix. The hard part is to understand how the linked mechanism actually works.