[SleepIsWrong]

Howdy, my first post on this forum...

I'm looking to acquire a bari sax and have found one that looks good - a Holton Elkhorn model with a serial number 27666. From what I've read it is from the late 1920s. It has been relacquered at some point. Current owner has had it for around 20 years, claims it plays well - high F# to lo Bb. Obviously I'll be playing it before buying. He is asking $1500 for the horn. I'll be playing it for a few songs in my rock band, plus I'm in a "brass" band that has urged me to get something with more "firepower" than the bass clarinet I'm currently playing. I'm most definitely not a pro, just love playing. Am I on the right path with the Holton? I've read a lot of good stuff about them.

Thanks in advance!

Mike

 

[mijderf]

Have you checked out this 1930's model from JayeLID, one of our members? Scroll to the bottom of the page to read about this horn.
http://www.2ndending.com/saxes.html

 

[turf3]

Howdy, my first post on this forum...

I'm looking to acquire a bari sax and have found one that looks good - a Holton Elkhorn model with a serial number 27666. From what I've read it is from the late 1920s. It has been relacquered at some point. Current owner has had it for around 20 years, claims it plays well - high F# to lo Bb. Obviously I'll be playing it before buying. He is asking $1500 for the horn. I'll be playing it for a few songs in my rock band, plus I'm in a "brass" band that has urged me to get something with more "firepower" than the bass clarinet I'm currently playing. I'm most definitely not a pro, just love playing. Am I on the right path with the Holton? I've read a lot of good stuff about them.

Thanks in advance!

Mike

Well, I can tell you it is NOT keyed to high F#.

Holtons may be Conns in disguise, or made in their own factory. If it is a Conn in disguise, I would avoid the variant where the octave vent mechanism is on the body and the vent on the neck so that you have to align the neck in one and only one position.

Beyond that I can't comment without a lot more information.

 

[SleepIsWrong]

Thanks for the replies! Here are some photos of the horn in question:

 

[turf3]

Well, that's a real Holton for sure.

Oddball RH trill or maybe high D key in there. Fork Eb (you WANT this!) Front high F (Holton were very early to put this on the soprano and baritone; Conn didn't put it on till the late 30s, and the King Zephyr I think never got it, even into the early 70s) - you WANT this too.

Only thing, is that darn upper octave vent on the neck/mechanism on the body.

Personally, if I were to buy a horn with that setup I would have it modified to make it not sensitive to neck alignment.

Can't comment on the price, don't know enough.

 

[B Flat]

I bet it would have a great sound.

 

[cymru97]

It probably sounds nice, but the price and octave mechanism would put me off. You could accomplish your goals for a lower price and get a horn with a normal octave mechanism.

If you are on a budget, I'd look at late 12Ms and King Zephyrs, followed by an old Buescher/Bundy, but that's personal preference.

It *is* really nice to try before you buy, but I'm afraid you would have a lot of trouble recouping your investment at that price.

 

[Mike T]

It probably does have a great sound — but the octave key on the neck would put me off buying it. The same goes for the Holton bari advertised for sale by my good friend JayeLID on his 2nd Ending website, although you can be sure that everything he says about it there is true.

I notice that JayeLID lists a 1960s Conn 12M as in his stock room waiting to be "worked up." (It's the last item on his webpage.) They're great horns (I've got one myself, as well as a 1936 one). If I were you, I'd drop him an email and if the price is right, reserve it !

 

[turf3]

Here is the solution to the issue with the octave vent on the neck and the key on the body. You install a mechanism like the one shown in the first 10 seconds or so, on the neck, then cut off the pad cup from the body and install an arm that will lift the pad. Now you can adjust the neck anywhere you want.

If I came into possession of one of these baritones, this would be one of the first things I would do.

Adding the cost of this modification to a $1500 purchase price for a Holton baritone is probably (certainly) not cost effective, though.

 

[click]

Here is the solution to the issue with the octave vent on the neck and the key on the body. You install a mechanism like the one shown in the first 10 seconds or so, on the neck, then cut off the pad cup from the body and install an arm that will lift the pad. Now you can adjust the neck anywhere you want.

If I came into possession of one of these baritones, this would be one of the first things I would do.

Adding the cost of this modification to a $1500 purchase price for a Holton baritone is probably (certainly) not cost effective, though.

When I checked into the modification to change the octave key to stay on the neck of an old Conn, I was told it was much more difficult and expensive than it looked.

I am merely reporting, not asserting.

I was surprised to hear it.

I hate having the neck stuck in exactly one position.

 

[JayeLID]

I do not mean to come in here and appear to be making a gratuitous plug....(BTW, thanks gents for the kind referrals)...but in my opinion, as a refurber and dealer: that horn is priced too high, as has already been stated.

I LIKE these old Holtons, but fact is the side octave pip really IS sort of a pain...it really sets the neck in one place with the inability to rotate it more than around maybe 5 degrees. Given that fact plus the relacq, honestly...the horn has a market value of perhaps $1000...although in the past I have had to sell ones like this, original lacq, for around $850-ish.

IF you were an experienced BigHorn player and this was to be a second horn, I might say go for it (if the seller would drop it to $1100 tops). But for a newbie Bari player, I think one should avoid that side octave pip situation. Yes, as Turf notes, a tech can modify the octave mech and relocate the octave pip to a 'normal' location on the neck...but, yeah, that's gonna be like a $300 job at least. More than just moving a pip and lengthening an octave stem....it's a big job.

Anyways....I typically sell Low Bb Baris for between $1000-1500, more 'modern' (i.e. mid '30's and later) vintages where the octave mechanisms aren't anachronistic. I have several models in storage I can work up given a couple weeks or so.

PM me if you like (again, not at all trying to push anything on you). The fact you are looking at a $1500 horn means you can definitely afford something like a 12M, Zephyr, Buescher, later Holton, or even a J.Keilwerth stencil....

 

[turf3]

When I checked into the modification to change the octave key to stay on the neck of an old Conn, I was told it was much more difficult and expensive than it looked.

I am merely reporting, not asserting.

I was surprised to hear it.

I hate having the neck stuck in exactly one position.

If you have to pay someone to do it, it's going to be expensive, no doubt.

How one assesses the degree of difficulty depends on one's skills. If I had a donor neck (doesn't matter what kind), a torch capable of silver soldering and soft soldering, and the usual complement of minor metalworking tools (files, saws, Dremel tools, etc.) I would not consider this a "difficult" job. It would require careful attention to get everything lined up right. For a one-off, the cost to have someone do it would be quite high.

I'm sure this is why no one is doing this as a common modification, especially since a significant fraction of the baritones with this neck setup are also keyed only to Eb making them even less desirable.

Maybe when I get my workshop back I should buy up some of those old Conns, put high E and F tone holes with front F mechanism, and alter the octave mechanism. Poor man's 12M?

I have long suspected that the acoustically best place for the vent is about where those old Conns have it, but Selmer and the like moved the vent below the receiver, and most of the American horns moved it way up above the receiver, in order to avoid this mechanical issue. (I have no data or testing to back up this suspicion, but why would you design it like that unless you felt you had a darn good reason?)

 

[SleepIsWrong]

Thanks everyone for the positively brilliant education regarding the Holton horns. I've decided to take what I feel is the consensus here and look a bit more for a bari. Until a few days ago I did not know of this website's existence - what a treasure! Thanks again!

Mike

 

[cymru97]

Where are you located, Mike? You may have some local resources the SOTW community can direct you to. If you are looking toward the budget end, I've owned two King Zpehyrs and they are great rock horns. They have incredible projection and a huge sound that you can really push. I've also owned one of the Bundy horns that was built by Keilwerth and it had a HUGE presence and a booming low-end. The late 12M's would also be on my short list. Give it time, research here, ask questions, and enjoy the hunt!

If you are considering getting a a horn shipped, I'd highly recommend a chat with JayeLID. The guy has a great reputation here on SOTW for his knowledge and fairness, just have a look at his contributions here on the forum and that'll tell you all you need to know! Good luck on your hunt!

 

[B Flat]

You could always keep an eye out for one of those lowly The Martins.
Awesome baritones.
I miss mine already, thankfully I have another one that I’ll get worked up when financially able to.
In the mean time I’ll just make do with my VI.

 

[click]

Where are you located, Mike? You may have some local resources the SOTW community can direct you to. If you are looking toward the budget end, I've owned two King Zpehyrs and they are great rock horns. They have incredible projection and a huge sound that you can really push. I've also owned one of the Bundy horns that was built by Keilwerth and it had a HUGE presence and a booming low-end. The late 12M's would also be on my short list. Give it time, research here, ask questions, and enjoy the hunt!

If you are considering getting a a horn shipped, I'd highly recommend a chat with JayeLID. The guy has a great reputation here on SOTW for his knowledge and fairness, just have a look at his contributions here on the forum and that'll tell you all you need to know! Good luck on your hunt!

I like the Zephyr for a bargain, no doubt.

 

[typist]

My friend bought a Zephyr off ebay for $700 and it's an amazing horn after the obligatory $300 repair/adjust/clean. Buy the straightest, most complete vintage horn you can find, plan on several hundred in repair, and Bob's yer uncle. I'm so jealous of him...trying to pull off one of these myself at the moment...:twisted:

 

[B Flat]

The Zephyrs are nice enough but the lack of a front F is a little off putting.
Keilwerth King Tempo’s and the like can be nice also.
Personally I’d go a 12m or The Martin over any of these, but don’t be throwing a Metallite on them and then complain about tuning.

 

[typist]

The Zephyrs are nice enough but the lack of a front F is a little off putting.

Later Zephs did have a front F. My buddy's does, as does one on ebay currently (both in the 300K's)
But you are right, it doesn't have to be a King. Any vintage horn can be great, with attention.

 

[B Flat]

Later Zephs did have a front F. My buddy's does, as does one on ebay currently (both in the 300K's)
But you are right, it doesn't have to be a King. Any vintage horn can be great, with attention.

Ahh good to know.
All the ones I've seen were without front F.
Must have been earlier ones.