[TSax80]

Hi,

this year I´ll be up for a new Bari. Based on my tech´s recommendation and Stephen Howard´s review, it shall be a Yamaha to make sure the mechanic will hold up for a long time, I like their precision and quality which I believe is an important issue with Baris. I play Rock/Soul and am heading for a Big Band, no classical music. Now Yamaha has announced new models to come out this year, and I am unsure:
- Is the 52 (marketed as 32 in Europe) enough for an amateur player? As Corona swallowed the summer holidays and lots of other things, I could afford the 62 or maybe even the 82, but the difference is quite significant.
- Will the 480 be superior to the 32/52? They say it´ll be adapted to smaller hands, well, I am a tall guy with large hands. Not sure I´d like that.
- Will the 62 II be an upgrade or a downgrade compared to the 62I? In tenors, the first 62s (purple logo) are more sought after than the later versions.
- What could the 82 possibly do better than the 62?
- They say that the bell will be shortened to improve intonation, will they change the toneholes? I have not heard or read about problems with the current models.

Many thanks in advance for any info or opinion and best from Germany.

 

[soybean]

In my experience with Yamaha, the newer models are always better than the previous. 62ii is an upgrade. If you have big hands, you should definitely play them before purchase... or make sure it is returnable.

 

[14470]

I know little about Yamaha baritone saxophones, but I think this video displays the limitations of the YBS-52 in the hands of a hapless player:

 

[Eulipion2]

I have a 62II, and it's great. It's a very versatile horn. I use it for classical and jazz, and occasionally dabble with the funkier side of things, and it never fails to deliver. Based on others' experiences posted on this forum, I'm sure the 32/52 would be more than adequate unless you absolutely need a high F# key. I rarely use it, even in classical playing.

 

[Saxhound]

I'm playing a 52 from the early 90's. Love the horn, even though it's been through a lot. Lot's of bark, and the ergos are just fine. I'm guessing the new ones are even better. IIRC, the 62s are quite a bit heavier.

 

[59Martin]

I play both a YBS 52 and a The Martin Bari.

The 52 is an amazing horn. After spending A LOT of time with it, the only things I'd change about it are the plastic key "pearls" and cheesy, radiation-proof yellow lacquer. Sound and build quality are beyond reproach.

I've reluctantly grown into this horn, I've always been a vintage horn guy and when I started playing it I had the usual ill-informed prejudices against it as a modern-student horn. Not being in a position to trade or upgrade it, I had no choice but to adapt to it. By that I mean I just had to accept the idea of playing a student yamaha horn professionally The struggle was real folks but I sucked it up and, much to my surprise, I grew fond of it, then I really liked it, now, I think I've fallen in love. Since then, Selmers, Yanis, Conns, 61s and even a 62 haven't stood the ghost of a chance.

 

[turf3]

I know little about Yamaha baritone saxophones, but I think this video displays the limitations of the YBS-52 in the hands of a hapless player:

Oh I hate it when rank beginners post videos just to show off how little command of the instrument they really have.

 

[tomonsax]

Oh I hate it when rank beginners post videos just to show off how little command of the instrument they really have.

:mrgreen: come on- the dancing is great! :twisted:

 

[nigeld]

I recently compared a YBS-32 with a 62 in a shop. When playing loud, I could not hear any difference. A pro player in the shop tried them as well and came to the same conclusion. When played softly, the 62 was sweeter at the high end. So for rock and for big band, a 32 would be great. For classical or smoochy ballads you might get more out of the 62.

 

[Eulipion2]

:mrgreen: come on- the dancing is great! :twisted:

I desperately hate the dancing. I find it distracting. If I shut my eyes it's fine, I guess. I've had the same problem with Grace Kelly lately. Just play the damn horn.

 

[KeithL]

I'd suggest you make a road trip to a shop that actually has some horns and play them. Nothing wrong with doing some research up front about price, reliability, or other factors that appear to be characteristic of a specific brand or model but making the decision to spend $5k on a new horn because a couple of techs prefer working on that brand and not an actual play test is foolish. Any decent instrument that is well cared for will spend only a tiny fraction of its life being worked-on, adjusted, or repaired. Play some horns and pick one that you enjoy playing the most since that's what you'll be doing with it.

About 15 years ago I decided I wanted to get a bari. At the time I owned two Yamaha tenors and a Yamaha alto and was expecting to end up with a YBS-62. After paying the Yamaha alongside a Selmer Series II, Keilwerth, and three Yanagisawas I walked out with a Yani B992 and still haven't found anything I like better having play tested many additional baris over the intervening years.

Yamaha makes some really fine instruments and if one of their baris turns out to be best for you that's great. However, realize that any well made horn that isn't abused is likely to give you few issues and out live you by decades. Making a decision because one instrument may be marginally more mechanically reliable isn't the metric to base a good part of your decision on.

Likewise the minor updating that Yamaha has made to their baris over the last couple of years may or may not be of significance to you. Finding a place that has both the old and new models available to play test side-by-side would be difficult in most of the US though it may be easier in some parts of Europe. Based upon the information/ reviews I've read or watched it seems like mostly a marketing exercise to me but not having played any of the new editions personally I have no first hand experience to compare.

 

[TSax80]

Thanks a lot for all the answers. Of course, I will try before I buy, but trying baris is not so easy. I´ll visit some stores in Germany and the Netherlands in the summer, I am not in a hurry, as my tech resuscitated an old Weltklang. The Weltklang sounds good for the deep honk, but is far away from being refined, also has a lot of miles behind it so it has a somewhat limited perspective.
So what I understand is that I can´t really go wrong with a Yamaha or Yanagisawa, already the 32/52 is a top instrument, and I shall go for the tone, not for the marketing.

 

[MattTheCat]

I love my 52. I'm no pro by any means but it sounds great and my previous private teacher, who owns a 62, said that he would never complain if he had purchased a 52 instead. Yamaha student/intermediate models deserve their reputation.

 

[soybean]

… So what I understand is that I can´t really go wrong with a Yamaha or Yanagisawa, already the 32/52 is a top instrument, and I shall go for the tone, not for the marketing.

Exactly the right attitude.

 

[B Flat]

I'd suggest you make a road trip to a shop that actually has some horns and play them. Nothing wrong with doing some research up front about price, reliability, or other factors that appear to be characteristic of a specific brand or model but making the decision to spend $5k on a new horn because a couple of techs prefer working on that brand and not an actual play test is foolish. Any decent instrument that is well cared for will spend only a tiny fraction of its life being worked-on, adjusted, or repaired. Play some horns and pick one that you enjoy playing the most since that's what you'll be doing with it.

About 15 years ago I decided I wanted to get a bari. At the time I owned two Yamaha tenors and a Yamaha alto and was expecting to end up with a YBS-62. After paying the Yamaha alongside a Selmer Series II, Keilwerth, and three Yanagisawas I walked out with a Yani B992 and still haven't found anything I like better having play tested many additional baris over the intervening years.

Yamaha makes some really fine instruments and if one of their baris turns out to be best for you that's great. However, realize that any well made horn that isn't abused is likely to give you few issues and out live you by decades. Making a decision because one instrument may be marginally more mechanically reliable isn't the metric to base a good part of your decision on.

Likewise the minor updating that Yamaha has made to their baris over the last couple of years may or may not be of significance to you. Finding a place that has both the old and new models available to play test side-by-side would be difficult in most of the US though it may be easier in some parts of Europe. Based upon the information/ reviews I've read or watched it seems like mostly a marketing exercise to me but not having played any of the new editions personally I have no first hand experience to compare.

I'm not surprised that you walked out with the Yanagisawa.
Between the 62 and the Yanagisawa's (including the 901/902)as well as the 991/992's, there would be no contest for me.
How did the Keilwerth rank for you?
Never had the opportunity to try a modern Keilwerth, but something tells me I'd like them.

 

[KeithL]

I'm not surprised that you walked out with the Yanagisawa.
Between the 62 and the Yanagisawa's (including the 901/902)as well as the 991/992's, there would be no contest for me.
How did the Keilwerth rank for you?
Never had the opportunity to try a modern Keilwerth, but something tells me I'd like them.

If I remember some of your previous post B Flat you have pretty big hands so I'd guess you'd like the Keilwerth. It was a long time ago but for me the keywork was more spread and just more sort of "industrial" feeling to me. The JK also needs a bit more air to make it work optimally I think. The Yamaha was nice as was the Selmer but they required more effort as well. At the time I was pretty much a 100% tenor player and had only borrowed baris a couple of times to sub for folks in concert and big bands. The Yani baris both felt and blew like big tenors. They responded so easily and the keywork was so slick that I was won over pretty quickly.

After owning the B992 for over 15 years now and playing a lot of bari over the last 10 I'm not sure if I would react to all the horns now the same way I did then. I've played a lot of baris since and haven't found anything I like better but I suspect there is some familiarity bias involved with that now having spent so many hours on my horn at this point. I play a piece with a much bigger tip opening now than I did then and I put a lot more air into the horn. It takes time to learn to play bari with a big meaty sound. It doesn't happen in just a week or two. Bari needs a lot more air and support than alto or tenor and it takes many hours to get used to that. The only Keilwerth bari I've played in the last several years was a student model (ST90 I think??) and it felt clunky as well as needing adjustment but I'd like to have another go at an SX90 now that I'm a better player and see if my opinion has changed.

I have played the YBS-52 & 62 baris a few times over the years and for some reason, even though the body tubes are supposed to be the same, I strongly prefer the 62. The 52 always sounds a bit harsh to me by comparison. Overall the Yamahas are really well made horns and the Low A mechanism is probably the best out there but if I were looking to buy a bari at the price point of the YBS-52 I would end up with a Yani B901 or B-WO1 whatever the new model is. At that price point it offers the best combination of sound and build quality IMO.

 

[TSax80]

I have pretty big hands, too, and my SX90R tenor just fits my hands, while other horns feel a bit small. I also love the tone and responsiveness of my Keili, and it does in no way suffer from the tonehole issues, lucky me! So naturally I´d be most interested in a Keilwerth baritone sax. But there are hardly any new Keilwerth baritones around, even here in Germany, and on the websites they are priced close to a Selmer series III - that´s just too much for me.

Those of you who play both tenor and bari from the same maker, do you find that they share tonal characteristics? I have playtested Yani T901 and T-WO1 when I had the opportunity, and found them a bit anemic compared to my SX90R tenor, but that may be completely different with the baritones?

 

[B Flat]

If I remember some of your previous post B Flat you have pretty big hands so I'd guess you'd like the Keilwerth. It was a long time ago but for me the keywork was more spread and just more sort of "industrial" feeling to me. The JK also needs a bit more air to make it work optimally I think. The Yamaha was nice as was the Selmer but they required more effort as well. At the time I was pretty much a 100% tenor player and had only borrowed baris a couple of times to sub for folks in concert and big bands. The Yani baris both felt and blew like big tenors. They responded so easily and the keywork was so slick that I was won over pretty quickly.

After owning the B992 for over 15 years now and playing a lot of bari over the last 10 I'm not sure if I would react to all the horns now the same way I did then. I've played a lot of baris since and haven't found anything I like better but I suspect there is some familiarity bias involved with that now having spent so many hours on my horn at this point. I play a piece with a much bigger tip opening now than I did then and I put a lot more air into the horn. It takes time to learn to play bari with a big meaty sound. It doesn't happen in just a week or two. Bari needs a lot more air and support than alto or tenor and it takes many hours to get used to that. The only Keilwerth bari I've played in the last several years was a student model (ST90 I think??) and it felt clunky as well as needing adjustment but I'd like to have another go at an SX90 now that I'm a better player and see if my opinion has changed.

I have played the YBS-52 & 62 baris a few times over the years and for some reason, even though the body tubes are supposed to be the same, I strongly prefer the 62. The 52 always sounds a bit harsh to me by comparison. Overall the Yamahas are really well made horns and the Low A mechanism is probably the best out there but if I were looking to buy a bari at the price point of the YBS-52 I would end up with a Yani B901 or B-WO1 whatever the new model is. At that price point it offers the best combination of sound and build quality IMO.

Thanks Keith
Yes I do have some pretty big hands.
Which is part of my reason for not being a big fan of the Yamaha 62 Baritones.
I did have one for a while though.
Quality wise they are great Saxophones and have quite a meaty tone about them.
I can certainly see why many like them so much as they do feel like a tenor.
I sold mine some time ago and picked up a YBS61 which had a much more favourable spread for my hands.
At the same time I also had a Yanagisawa B6.
This was the best Low A Baritone I have had.
In a moment of weakness I sold this one also.
I now have only low Bb Baritones.
A The Martin committee III, a 1933 Conn transitional and a later 1970 Mexiconn 12m.
If I could find a low A with the tone and key spread of these horns, I'd grab it in a second.
Of the modern horns, I believe (from what I've heard) that the Keilwerth SX90 would come closest to fitting the bill.

 

[Lambros]

Of the modern horns, I believe (from what I've heard) that the Keilwerth SX90 would come closest to fitting the bill.

You're right about this and the nice thing about the SX90 (low Bb and A) is that you can play it with a YBS62 neck. Great horn; I love my low A!

 

[KeithL]

I have pretty big hands, too, and my SX90R tenor just fits my hands, while other horns feel a bit small. I also love the tone and responsiveness of my Keili, and it does in no way suffer from the tonehole issues, lucky me! So naturally I´d be most interested in a Keilwerth baritone sax. But there are hardly any new Keilwerth baritones around, even here in Germany, and on the websites they are priced close to a Selmer series III - that´s just too much for me.

Those of you who play both tenor and bari from the same maker, do you find that they share tonal characteristics? I have playtested Yani T901 and T-WO1 when I had the opportunity, and found them a bit anemic compared to my SX90R tenor, but that may be completely different with the baritones?

Well I used to play Yamaha alto and tenor but now I play very little alto at all and do almost all of my tenor playing on Taiwanese tenors - Barone Classic and Tenor Madness Custom. I still believe in terms of fit & finish as well as initial setup that Yani and Yamaha are the best. I play the tenors I do because the palm key tone holes are a bit bigger than the Mark VI and all the VI copies (Later Selmers, Yamahas and Yanis) and those notes just speak much better for me on the Taiwanese tenors.

I also have relatively small hands and the spread keywork on some horns especially baritones is an issue for me. The Low A keys on Yamaha and Yani baris move down and left which means as you press them the rest of your hand moves closer to the left hand table keys. Baris that have Low A keys that move the other way, down and right, which many do, are no good for me because I can't reach the table keys when depressing the Low A. Lots of funk band music requires the bari player to play chromatic riffs down there that I simply could not do on some horns with the movement of those Low A keys.

I also have a Barone Low Bb bari which is a pretty rare horn that I bought from SOTW member Kritavi several years ago. Great sound and the keywork is good and very manageable. It has some minor intonation quirks, no worse than the vintage American baris I've played but different. It's the only east Asian bari I've played that doesn't have a note or two with either timbre or serious intonation issues. I've played a bunch of Taiwanese baris and a couple Chinese made horns and there always seems to be a note or two that makes me cringe for some reason. Most also have Low A mechanics that don't work for me either. Much like the tenors, the Barone bari speaks better for me in the palm keys than my Yani but the Yani is the better horn in pretty much every other way.

As far as Keilwerth horns go, there have been a few threads in that section of the forum about where they seem to be going now that they are part of Buffet and have been largely absent from the US market as a major player for many years. Personally I think it's pretty clear at this point that manufacturing something like a saxophone can no longer be done in Western Europe or North America for anything other than professional/artist/virtuoso level instruments that can command very high retail pricing. The economics of labor and manufacturing no longer support making less expensive options in these countries. Powell tried to bring back the manufacture of saxophones to the US about 6-7 years ago with what they were going to call "Silver Eagle" but they gave up mostly due to the costs involved. Of the old "Big 4" Selmer, Yamaha, Yani, and Keilwerth - only Yamaha is really left as a brand that's both readily available and somewhat affordable. The prices and lead times for Keilwerth and Selmer have really turned them into boutique brands at this point especially when you're talking baritones.