[secretasianman999]

I'm trying to pass on some advice to parents of beginner players at my son's school - with the new vs used instruments, and wanted to check on how this plays out on flute. On saxophone, everyone recommends YAS-23's - though it always feels as if newbie parents are in for a surprise when the repairman says it needs an overhaul for $300-600. Let's see how it plays out on flute

A few strategies:
a) Buy a new Chinese horn and hope for the best: (Lazarro/Glory/Mendini/Cecilio/Eastar)

b) Buy new with a semi-reputable brand, let's say, a Jean Paul or Etude beginner flute for $199, ideally a brand that has some local presence in your country. The flute should be reasonably ready to play out of the box, new pads, and should be able to go long enough for the student to determine whether they want to make a bigger investment. And if not, well, it wasn't too bad of a hit.

c) Buy new with a major brand (let's say a Yamaha YFL222, Gemeinhardt, or maybe an Armstrong?). Highest investment upfront. Get the piece of mind that this is a quality instrument, and know that when you're done, you'll still have decent used value.

d) Buy used. high risk, potential big reward. With beginner flutes (and saxophones as well), it's easy to be tempted by cheap used horns. You can get a used name brand student model for $50-100, think you got a good deal, then realize you need a full repad/overhaul that could cost you hundreds of dollars. Alternatively, you might aim a little higher, look for a used intermediate or pro flute, acknowledging it will need some time in the shop.

You can reduce risk greatly if accompanied by an experienced player/shopper who can make an assessment on how playable the instrument is and its potential. But to a newbie wouldn't be able to make the assessment with either initial evaluation of the instrument nor evaluation of the repair shop (who may not even stick with the instrument) this may not be worth it.

e) The hedge your bet technique: Go with A/B AND D. Maybe you'll get lucky and get a nice used instrument. Regardless, this will still be hundreds less than C.

 

[turf3]

A, NO!
B, meh. $199 flute is probably not worth it.
C, Yamaha way better than Armstrong or Gemeinhardt which at the lower prices are pretty awful (tho not as bad as an old Artley)
D, would recommend to buy from someone who deals in these and repairs them, not Ebay or pawnshops. There are a couple of vendors on this forum who could set you up for short money.

Frankly I think the implied $200 price point is not going to get you anything that's both new and playable, and it's pushing it for used and playable.

 

[saxoclese]

Another option is to rent a new or used instrument that is a reputable brand from a local music store. The parents are not out a large investment initially while the student has the opportunity to see if playing an instrument is something he/she wants to continue. Many stores will apply the rental payments to the purchase price if the parents later choose to buy the instrument. Some stores also include an optional low cost "maintenance" plan where repairs and adjustments are done in the store's repair department. The store I used to work for in the repair shop also had a program where student instruments were allowed a generous trade in value when upgrading to a more "professional" instrument.

 

[bruce bailey]

I sell mostly used student flutes of a good brand. Look for a $150 closed hole flute with good pads.

 

[KeithL]

I picked up a used Yamaha 281 for $175 and put another $100 in to get it into good playable condition. It may be a bit more expensive in NYC than it is in Colorado but I think that's the best bet for a solid playing student instrument. Nothing worse than a cheap flute. Several years ago my niece was in grade school trying to learn on a cheap rental flute from a local music store in north Jersey and the instrument was completely unplayable. By the time I went to visit around Christmas it was too late. The kid had already given up and moved on thinking she just couldn't do it.

 

[jthole]

I picked up a used Yamaha 281 for $175 and put another $100 in to get it into good playable condition. It may be a bit more expensive in NYC than it is in Colorado but I think that's the best bet for a solid playing student instrument. Nothing worse than a cheap flute. Several years ago my niece was in grade school trying to learn on a cheap rental flute from a local music store in north Jersey and the instrument was completely unplayable. By the time I went to visit around Christmas it was too late. The kid had already given up and moved on thinking she just couldn't do it.

My daughter's first flute also was a student Yamaha, bought second hand, and overhauled. She used it for a couple of years, and we could easily sell it again when she moved to a higher end flute.

 

[CJ1972]

A very good friend of mine plays flute professionally and has been teaching for nearly three decades. Even five years ago he was incredibly disparaging about Chinese no brand flutes. In the last couple of years he has mentioned that a couple of students have bought them and despite his best efforts to dislike them, they have actually been decent things. I think the problem is quality control, you may get a brilliant one (for the money) or you might get a dodgy one. Is it worth the risk with so many decent used ones around?

 

[Minnesota]

Parents willing to understand the hurdles and obstacles standing in front of their kid's journey in the musical world are few and far between. I don't feel most parents want to be gear nerds either. They just want to buy something that will work well and forget about it so that little Billy or Janey can get on with it all. Farther and further between are the kids on the journey towards a long term, be the best musician one can be and practice diligently to get there coupled with parents that are actively supporting that dream.

My long winded reply :

For the vast majority of parents out there with beginning students I would recommend a conservative approach and suggest a reputable (Yamaha) brand new instrument. If I knew more about the parent; such as their financial ability to take on the purchase, their personal involvement with the child's musical education, the goals of the child and of the parent and a host of other intimate details that we aren't really privy, then my recommendation 'might' change.

 

[JayeLID]

a) NO

b) NO

c) Maybe

d) You lmake an unfair assumption - that every used flute is gonna be a risk. Why not just find some sellers who guarantee their instruments to be in good, serviced, playing and structural condition ?
And buy from them.
Bruce Bailey does this for flutes, for example. I also associate with a tech who does this....occasionally buys used models of decent rep, services them, sells them to families of students. Still way cheaper than a new flute.

 

[turf3]

Personally I'd add to that, since not everyone can extend their finances to a brand new instrument of good quality, even the lowest cost Yamaha, that a used instrument from someone who goes through them and makes them playing-ready is also a good choice.

There are a couple people on this forum (Bruce Bailey, JayeLID) who do this, and I'm sure there are others both on the forum and off whose names I don't know.

I would not recommend a non-playing parent of a beginner to buy a mystery instrument from Ebay or Craigslist, or weird colored instruments from China with lots!!!of!!!exclamation!!!points!!!! in the ad text and the word "PROFESSIONAL" in the description but offered at one third the going rate for a good playing normal instrument. I have had many co-workers ask my advice about instruments for their children and I always warn them off from this stuff, as the non-playing parent and their non-playing child are not going to be able to assess it. (Unfortunately about 75% of the time they ignore my advice and buy a bottom-feeder ISO from Wal Mart or something and then come back all proud of how much money they saved...)

 

[adamk]

I started on a used Reynolds student flute in 70 then got a new Selmer Signet coin silver.
Next was a Haynes commercial from the 30s, all closed holes.
And the story goes on.
+1 for Bruce.

 

[turf3]

One other point is that rental instruments can vary a lot.

I also play double bass, and when I started I rented from a double-bass specialist shop (now defunct, sadly). The two different instruments I rented from them were of good quality (though modest instruments) and were well set up.

Recently I had to rent a double bass again while waiting for mine to get to me. The store (a different one) had three double basses available; one was an undersize model (I had been very specific about needing a regular size adult bass); one was unplayable; and one was OKish. I took the OK ish one and spent about two hours doing a proper setup on it. The unplayable one has since undoubtedly been deployed to some unsuspecting kid who is trying to figure out why he can't get G# on the G string to sound. This store is the major supplier of rental instruments to school districts all around a metro area of some 7 million people, and yet they offered an unplayable instrument that needed several hours of setup work to even make notes, and another one that an experienced player had to adjust extensively.

So just because it's rented from a store doesn't mean it plays properly, or even at all.

 

[Minnesota]

One other point is that rental instruments can vary a lot. So just because it's rented from a store doesn't mean it plays properly, or even at all.

This is a good reminder to have a qualified musician (whether the buyer, a friend, or a representative of the store) play test the instrument before taking it home. This will save a lot of time and aggravation for everyone involved. It will also help the store maintain its quality within the service department. Not much reason for the store to be unable to ready an instrument for a customer. Unless that's just not their thing, and then I would suggest that's not the best vendor for a non playing, non service tech capable parent to buy from.

 

[saxoclese]

One other point is that rental instruments can vary a lot. So just because it's rented from a store doesn't mean it plays properly, or even at all.

Reputable music stores with a good repair department typically have all of the used rentals go through the shop before becoming a "re-rental". In the best stores, new instruments are checked over before putting them into stock.

 

[bruce bailey]

Keep in mind that many repair shops just don't do a great job on flutes. Contact a local teacher or via a college to get going in the right direction.

 

[lesacks]

What's missing from this rundown, seems to me, are the online folks (g4m, sax.co.. etc) who offer multi year warranties on all categories, including own brand (somewhere between A and B?) Instruments. Aren't these a good compromise, especially for kids and folks testing the waters? If your / they're still committed after 5 years, you / they would also have the knowledge to test and asses a wide range of options. So a good, economic, investment (in experience, not hardware!)?

 

[secretasianman999]

I guess this could apply to any instrument (certainly not just flutes) but how do you advise parents of child beginners on how to find the reputable used instrument dealers? Yelp?

The “good guys” who refurbish old horns to spread the love of music usually aren’t great at marketing themselves - they’re usually only found through word of mouth. They also tend not to carry a tremendous amount of inventory.

A personal anecdote - a few years ago, I decided to teach myself piano - I bought a digital piano and I found it by doing a tremendous amount of research on my own, casting a broad target of what I was looking and at what price range, then found a deal on my local (NYC) Craigslist. It was a 3 year old Yamaha Arius with a Sam Ash extended warranty still intact!

It’s especially odd for wind instruments because if you don’t know how to play the instrument, you need a tremendous amount of trust in the salesperson.

But I guess that’s the reason why you need to find a reputable music store that could help you.

 

[KeithL]

The best way is probably to ask people who have experience with dealers. There are lots of small flute dealers out there that often have a few student model flutes available that they've made sure are in good playable condition. I think the key is to educate the parents of what the lowest reasonable cost for a decent instrument is likely to be and maybe a bit about brands and what a beginning flute player needs and doesn't need. Just realize buying from a dealer is going to cost a little more because the dealer needs to make a profit.

I've bought a couple of flutes from Susan at Flutastic; http://www.flutastic.com/ and been very pleased. She usually has a few student flutes available in the $350-$600 range depending upon the brand/model and condition. You can find flutes cheaper but she works with a couple expert flute techs to make sure all the instruments in her inventory are in excellent playing condition which raises the selling price. I think there are many small dealers out there with similar business plans.

 

[adamk]

More power to the little guy.