[DryMartini]

Hello,
I got a new Ref 54 alto and the I noticed that it was hard to subtone the low notes. I can subtone low C fine then low C# sounds like a leak is happening, low B is better but still off, and low Bflat is still a little better.

The problem is more notable when playing subtone or soft.

So I noticed the low F# key (the key above the key with the F pearl, #1 on right hand) would vibrate when playing low notes so I thought it might have a leak. Then I played the low c# while putting my right thumb on the F# key and then the note sounds easily while playing soft or subtone. If I hold that key down the sax pops really well.

So I know this area of the sax bis, G#, F#, F is super complicated - but is my particular issue an easy thing to fix or is this a 'must take to the tech' problem.

I have never worked on a sax before so there is that.

Thanks!

 

[kreacher]

Check if the F# key closes well when you finger F# (middle finger of right hand). If it does, then it's probably the adjusting screw that needs tightening in the linkage between F and F# or a cork/felt came off.

 

[DryMartini]

THANKS will do - I noticed that if I use firm pressure when fingering low F and below that may be a fix. I may have been using too light a pressure. WILL try again tomorrow goodnight

 

[1saxman]

That is a typical adjustment that would/should be made before shipping/handing over a new sax. There are probably no adjustment screws involved - typically on a Selmer it would be a cork adjustment. Some players with experience will just make a slight manual adjustment and make a mental note to go over the corks behind the clothes guard at a later time. Please don't do this yourself - this is something that you would take the sax back for and have it adjusted if you bought it at a store. Otherwise you might have to get a tech to go over the whole sax.

 

[mmichel]

There are probably no adjustment screws involved - typically on a Selmer it would be a cork adjustment. Some players with experience will just make a slight manual adjustment and make a mental note to go over the corks behind the clothes guard at a later time. Please don't do this yourself - this is something that you would take the sax back for and have it adjusted if you bought it at a store. Otherwise you might have to get a tech to go over the whole sax.

I disagree with this. The problem that DryMartini describes (i.e., the G# key lifting/leaking when fingering one of the LH pinky spatula keys) is one of the most typical adjustment problems on the saxophone.

It is adjustable via an adjustment screw attached to the F# key mechanism on all modern saxophones, and it is easily adjusted by the end user (see this video, for example). You don't need to take it to a tech.

 

[clarnibass]

I disagree with this. The problem that DryMartini describes (i.e., the G# key lifting/leaking when fingering one of the LH pinky stack keys) is one of the most typical adjustment problems on the saxophone.

It sounds like he was referring to kreacher's post, which mentioned an adjustment screw between F and F#, which some saxophones have (e.g. Yamaha) but Selmer doesn't.
Since the problem is with C# but not C, it does seem like it is very likely the G# not closing, and putting more force on the F# key (top lower stack key) actually closes the G# that is leaking, and not the F# key itself.
You can check that by playing low C with G# pressed.

 

[saxoclese]

The issue as far as I can tell is that the F key is not fully closing the F# which in turn is not holding the G# completely closed when a key on the LH table is pressed. As others have said on some makes this adjustment can be made by turning an adjusting screw at the bottom stack back bar. Without that, the foot of the F must be bent up slightly to close the F# (call the "don't bend keys police ). Another possibility is that the small piece of "buffering material" on top of the F key foot has come off or loose.

 

[mmichel]

It sounds like he was referring to kreacher's post, which mentioned an adjustment screw between F and F#, which some saxophones have (e.g. Yamaha) but Selmer doesn't.
Since the problem is with C# but not C, it does seem like it is very likely the G# not closing, and putting more force on the F# key (top lower stack key) actually closes the G# that is leaking, and not the F# key itself.
You can check that by playing low C with G# pressed.

Ah, okay thanks, I missed this.

My read on this, based (as you said) on the fact that the problem exists for C#, but not for C, is that the F# key "vibrating" is a red herring and that the real problem is the F#-to-G# regulation.

If the F# key were not closing completely, then low C would not speak either.

 

[DryMartini]

Just wanted to circle back. I watched the Bob Reynolds vlog where he takes his horn to John Leadbetter and I John talks about this area of the sax as being one of the hardest / trickyest to regulate. Then I heard Bob say "It's great John is a stellar player because he know how hard I am going to be pushing down on the keys". Then I realized I was playing with very light pressure with my left hand. I started to play more firmly (the action is on the stiff side on my horn). Then I realized the low notes came out better, even the low C#.

The next day I played I used a softer reed and also playing more firmly with left hand- all of sudden the horn was playing fine.

When I finger low F the F# key still vibrates, but less so when using firm pressure. Similar scenario as I play lower. Is the F# key supposed to vibrate at all?

I appreciate all the advice. Though it sometimes feels like I'm going nuts with all the back and forth.

 

[DryMartini]

This is the key I refer to as the F# marked in red. If I used light presssure and hard reed it vibrates when playing lower notes. If I use a softer reed and use firm pressure it does not seem to vibrate or not much- and the sax plays fine. I have not tried a hard reed and firm pressure. What is the thinking with this key- is it normal for it to vibrate?

 

[mmichel]

When I finger low F the F# key still vibrates, but less so when using firm pressure. Similar scenario as I play lower. Is the F# key supposed to vibrate at all?

None of the keys should vibrate, at least not visibly.

How do you know it's vibrating? Can you see it, or are you hearing it (e.g., as a rattling sound), or do you just feel it vibrating? If it's visibly vibrating, then you should probably take it to a tech.

As far as playability, you should ideally be able to play the low notes with light finger pressure (i.e., you shouldn't need to use a "gorilla grip").

The easiest way to determine whether the G# adjustment is the problem is to finger a low C (with light finger pressure) and then add the G# key. If the G# is properly regulated, then pressing this key won't make any difference. However, if the G# regulation screw (attached to the F# key) is insufficiently lowered, the G# key will open slightly and the low C will become harder to play.

 

[DryMartini]

Thanks mmichel I know it vibrates because I pull my right thumb around on it and can feel it.

I'm playing a softer reed and played low c fine. If I play low c and add the G# key there is not difference , low c still plays fine.

I can play low c# fine but if I pull my thumb around I can feel the f# key pictured above vibrates.

I'll eventually take it to a tech just a pain in the #$$#@ with the whole pandemic simple things become stressful!

 

[mmichel]

Thanks mmichel I know it vibrates because I pull my right thumb around on it and can feel it.

I'm playing a softer reed and played low c fine. If I play low c and add the G# key there is not difference , low c still plays fine.

I can play low c# fine but if I pull my thumb around I can feel the f# key pictured above vibrates.

I'll eventually take it to a tech just a pain in the #$$#@ with the whole pandemic simple things become stressful!

If you're just feeling it and not seeing it vibrate, that's good. It may not really be a problem.

However, since your G# doesn't seem to be leaking when you press the LH spatula keys, then the playability problem could actually be the opposite.

In other words, if the regulating screw for the G# is lowered too far, then the F# key will not close completely (because the G# key will keep it from closing completely), in which case you just need to back that screw off a bit.

Getting this adjustment just right without using a leak light (or cigarette paper) is tricky, but you can get there by first backing the screw out so that the G# clearly opens when the F key is pressed and screwing it in further bit by bit (alternating with play testing), until pressing the G# key has no effect on the production of a low C.

 

[turf3]

You need to check it with a leak light and VERY LIGHT finger pressure.

I'm willling to bet that there's a tiny leak there due to the cork at the back side getting compressed.

If this is a newly bought horn, take it where you bought it (if possible) and have them check it out, should be quick and cheap (really, it should be free). It probably needs no more than a thin piece of paper placed on top of the cork with contact cement. An adjustment for this key won't be an adjusting screw, probably. (Some horns have adj. screws here). If you go down through the whole top and bottom stack with a leak light, you can see how well the regulation is. Sometimes it takes a while for all the various cushioning materials and the pads to take a set so I wouldn't be surprised to make some minor regulation adjustments in the first few months with a new horn.

Sure is a beautiful new horn (is that picture yours?)

 

[saxoclese]

Everything attached to a saxophone vibrates---especially when it is played loudly.* This sometimes creates a "buzz" when there is an unlubricated roller or a loose guard screw. If the F# key when closed seems to vibrate more than the other keys in that location, it means that the F key (or the E key) is not producing a solid closing. One way to check this if you don't have a leak light is to find an old cassette tape and cut a 3" piece of the leader to use as a "feeler gauge". Close the F key with the end of feeler inside the tonehole and pull it out slowly to feel the "drag". Then using the same finger pressure put the feeler inside the F# tonehole and do the same. The drag should be very close to the same on both keys. You can also do this on the E key and the F# to check that regulation.

* This is why some players mistakenly think that adding weight or mass to the outside of the body affects the sound. Acoustic science that found that on a reed woodwind the vibrations of the wall material does not "couple" with the vibrations of the column of air inside the instrument which produces the sound transmitted from the instrument.

 

[DryMartini]

Really appreciate all the tips. Reviewing now prior to today's shedding. Yes its my new new horn! These things are sweet!! Maybe will ask tech to lighten up the action though. Any tips on how much that will cost?
Thanks all and stay safe.