[cpaace]

Although I am only 4 months into the clarinet ( using a rental), I am addicted enough to want to buy my own. I have a pretty good deal on a new Buffet E11 at a music store. However, my teacher suggested I explore the possibility of an older horn that has been competently overhauled. To that extent he gave me the name of someone he uses and speaks highly of. That person is currently working on a Buffet 1960s vintage. From what I can gather, trying to compare apples to apples, this older one is probably quality wise on the order of a R13. He tells me that one problem that I have to take into consideration with a new wood horn is that the wood has not aged and cracking is a definite possibility. I don't believe he was making a sales push for buying used, just giving me an honest observation. He has been doing this for over 30 years.

Like anyone else the temptation of new and shinny is hard to suppress. I wonder if perhaps there is not new technology involved. On the other hand to be able to get a superior model for the same price is also a plus.
So I am looking for opinions and reasons.[rolleyes]

 

[bandmommy]

All new 'wood' clarinets are made from 'aged' wood. They just haven't been exposed to the 'stress' of the heating and cooling cycles of playing.
That is why manufacturers strongly urge you to adhere to the break in period, and not playing the instrument in COLD conditions.

As for new vs older... There are many pre owned and refurbished 'pro' quality horns (R13) out there that can be had for less than half of a new 'intermediate' level (E11-12).
They have been exposed to the stress and the chances of them cracking in the future are very low. The quality of the older wood is sometimes superior to that of the 'new' counterpart.

If you want a shiny new clarinet that will not be affected by the elements you should look into a Buffet Greenline.
All the bells and whistles of the R13 without the worry of cracking.

 

[ericdano]

I know more people who have cracked recently made clarinets than old ones. My former teacher went through 2 new LeBlanc clarinets because of cracks.

It is sort of hit and miss with old wood instruments. Wood needs to be taken care of. It can warp. It can crack. It can totally dry out. Lots of things.

Best bet is to try out a bunch, find one you like, and have your teacher check it out. Or have several people who would know what to look for check it out. A good old R13 can play circles around a E11. All the E11's I've ever tried…..they seem to lack a complex tonal color. They seem brighter, but lacking in character (maybe due to the wood being not as dense?). Not that it is a bad thing, but if you compare a R13 and an E11 side by side, you'd hear it. Subtle sometimes, but noticable.

 

[bandmommy]

....And I've played E11's that have played circles around many R13s'.
I currently own a 1973 Buffet Evette Master Model that sounds better than my old teachers' 1961 R13.
Which reminds me.... If you are planning on joining the "Buffet Mafia" the Master Model is another good option.
It's basically an R13 without the price tag. I played mine for over 30 years. Concert band, Stage band, Marching band, Community band, Pit orchestra.... It's done it all.
I still get it out when I'm in the mood for a little different sound than my Selmer Signature.

 

[artstove]

Play them both if you can, and see which you like better. Years ago when I was buying my current clarinet, I tried a number of each of the Buffet and Selmer top-end horns. I ended up with an Evette & Schaeffer (a more intermediate level). I did not like the Selmers, and only one Buffet blew slightly easier than the E&S (but for a significant price premium). Clarinets vary instrument to instrument, so it is hard to answer your question in the abstract.

 

[Dave Dolson]

I had an R13 before I gifted it to my daughter. I have a Buffet RC Prestige (I've never heard or played a better clarinet than this one), and I recently bought an E-11 (one of German-made models) to keep assembled on a peg for some quick-and-easy practice runs without having to dig out my Prestige. The R13 and the Prestige were very close in tone and response. The E-11 not nearly so, yet it is a very good clarinet and meets my needs perfectly. No cracks in any of those. However, I recently bought a new Yamaha German System clarinet and the barrel cracked in short order (the selling dealer - in Europe, replaced it immediately).

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with either approach - the new E11 or an older refurbished clarinet. Which ever you like best would be the ticket. I'm betting that once you are hooked, you may be acquiring more than one anyway. DAVE

 

[cpaace]

Thx for all the replies. Nothing conclusive, but, a lot of good info to help with the decision. I will probably delay my decision until I get to try out the older clarinet. I am impressed with this site. I had to go through 6 pages of "new posts" to get to this one and it is less than a day old.

 

[clarnut]

While older wood can have issues and there is always the question of whether the previous owner(s) cared for it. A good repairperson can oil it and rehydrate the wood. While there is likely some aging process currently, the main concern is that the wood is not aged as long and current wood is nowhere near the quality of the old wood. Some folks have told me that the newer wood is not naturally aged and uses a process not unlike kiln drying. I don't know for sure if this is true.

 

[cpaace]

While older wood can have issues and there is always the question of whether the previous owner(s) cared for it. A good repairperson can oil it and rehydrate the wood. While there is likely some aging process currently, the main concern is that the wood is not aged as long and current wood is nowhere near the quality of the old wood. Some folks have told me that the newer wood is not naturally aged and uses a process not unlike kiln drying. I don't know for sure if this is true.

Sounds like a vote for the old, to me.

 

[clarnut]

Of course, it is all about what is a good instrument or not. Age or good wood does not alone make a good instrument. There are plenty of new instruments that are superb. Some say that there is better machining, tolerances, consistency etc. in the new instruments. Some claim that the old ones were better due to fine hand finishing by old craftsmen. I would not worry about any of it either way. I would play an instrument and decide if it is good and whether it is right for me. Old, new, whatever- a good horn is a good horn.

 

[Mustang55]

Clarinut, you are right. There are a lot of great "new" horns on the market that play extremely well. I've played all of Selmer's and Buffert's lines over the years as a teacher and performer. It was my primary instrument before I took up the saxophone. I still play every day and teach plenty of intermediate, advanced and professional players. I've also got a lot of experience with the LeBlanc series of horns.

If you have the opportunity to pick up an R-13 of the 60's vintage that has been taken care of I think you will find it more than meets your needs. If you don't care for it, look for a nice, used Selmer series 10, ( I like the G series...very rich and nice tone. ), you may also like the 9* Selmer which has a little larger bore and plays somewaht brighter. You can control this with your embochure...the most important part of clarinet playing to learn next to technique. I also agree that the "Prestige" series of Buffet clarinets are excellent as well as Evette. I still play my R-13 from 1967 and absolutely love it. If the horn you are describing is being re-done, ask how much a key-replate would be. You would then have shiney as well as vintage. Also have your tech put new Buffet 'leafing; on the trade mark areas...not crayon. I think you will be impressed. As band mommy says, play the horn and see if you like it. You don't have to be in the "Buffet" club to have a beautiful clarinet sound. I will say, though, that the R-13's of yesterday were excellent and that's why they are so popular. You choose...the sound will be YOU, not the horn. Mustang

 

[Reedscraper]

I'm not familiar with the newer models but I cast a strong vote for an older R13. I've had mine since 1965, no cracks. I had a repair guy who knows what he's doing re-pad it, using all cork pads in the smaller keys in the upper joint. It's good now for another 40 years.

 

[kymarto]

Of course the first question is which one you like better. Past that, there are actually some good reasons to go with a vintage horn over a new one. First, wood quality is on the decline, with the heavy demand for wood--or so I have heard. Earlier horns are supposedly made of better quality wood than newer horns. And of course, a better-quality vintage instrument can be purchased for the same price as a newer intermediate model.

Mechanically there have been no real improvements on the clarinet; arguably, the older horns are better, as some of the newer ones have substituted plastics in certain areas that used to be metal. I have two Buffets: one is a 70s R13 and the other is an old model from the 20s. That have been some minor keywork changes, but nothing that you would notice unless you are a tech. They are quite different; the R13 being darker and more resistant, with the older horn being freer-blowing and brighter. Both are excellent instruments.

Nor would I worry about the age of the wood. Actually, if the older horn has not cracked, that is a good sign for the future: it indicates that the stresses in the wood are balanced and that the wood has probably "settled" well. One doesn't really know with a new horn how the wood will do after being turned into a cylinder for some years. In any case, cracks can be repaired with no loss of playing quality.

That being said, it is important to make sure that the used horn is in good condition: the keywork should be tight, with no lateral play in the keys. The interior of the bore should be smooth, with no deterioration of the wood or raised wood grain. It sounds like a trusted tech is going over this horn, and if it has a clean bill of health there is no reason not to consider it.

New things are nice, but the shine will wear off soon enough. Personally I would go with the higher-quality horn--if you like it. OTOH, if you prefer the way the intermediate horn plays, there is no reason not to go with that.

Remember too that when it comes time to sell, a used R13 will bring more than a (now) used E11...

 

[paulwl]

Nor would I worry about the age of the wood. Actually, if the older horn has not cracked, that is a good sign for the future: it indicates that the stresses in the wood are balanced and that the wood has probably "settled" well.

Another plus for a good vintage clarinet. Of course, no one really knows what the sunset period is for grenadilla - whether you get most of the cracking in 10, 20, ??? years. However, my wooden Selmers are still crack-free after 70+ years.

 

[cpaace]

Well put and perhaps I need to speak with the overhauler in more depth. Problem with trying out the horn right now is that it is not finished. He says he is looking for a barrel. So obviously this is not one horn in its original form. How do you (all) feel about that?

 

[paulwl]

Barrels come and go - they may be the part most prone to cracking. Many very good players use a non-original barrel. What matters is that it tunes well.

 

[David Spiegelthal]

The older the better.

 

[rsclosson]

I contacted a store one time as I wanted to trade in an older Buffet that was in excellent condtion with no cracks or other problems. I was told that "nobody would be interested in a piece of wood that old" I was never able to figure that one out.

 

[lomaserena]

I have an early '70's R13 I bought new. A great horn. It was seriously overdue for an overhaul. I contacted a well-known shop in Los Angeles, and was basically told that they usually didn't bother with instruments that old, but if I was willing to pay a premium, they would hold their noses and work on it. I eventually sent it to Tim Clark, and he put it in better-than-new condition. There's clearly two opinions out there; some believe that clarinets wear out and can't be renewed, and some believe they can. Old horns can be good and a great bargain, but it's a case-by-case thing. It all depends on the care it's gotten.

 

[paulwl]

At the high levels of symphonic playing there's a phenomenon called blowout. After 5-20 years a clarinet begins to go unusually out of tune with itself. There's no fix except replacement.

Harmony clarinets like alto and basses are not affected. Neither are other wood instruments, like double reeds or piccolos. It's peculiar to the soprano clarinet*COUGH!*player*COUGH!*